So why does it matter which one we pick? If I want my character to be a gay guy, why is that so hard to justify? Why isn't the interest and realism of diversity enough? Especially since they say "write what you know", so I'm writing the sexuality I know.
@Justin Rocket Can you think of any published novels which measure up to your standards for conservation of detail?
I don't believe it is hard to justify. Make it meaningful and you're done. What diversity? Slapping on labels doesn't create diversity. You're gay? And that has had zero significance in your life? Assuming you're too young for marriage or adoption to have ever been a concern or for "first of kin" rights to be with your significant other as they head into surgery or, hell, a billion different ways it would be meaningful to an adult, you've still got the impact of ostracism in high school, coming out to your parents and family, and on and on and on. I believe, and I try to write, as sexual orientation absolutely is meaningful. If it isn't written with that meaning (however that meaning manifests because people will respond to experiences differently), then there's no real diversity added.
Do you have any intention of explaining what "slapping on labels" means, and of providing examples? Or have you, as I suspect, argued yourself into a corner, realized that you don't actually have a coherent position, and decided to cover your eyes and ears and shout "SLAPPING ON LABELS!" as often as possible?
I don't agree with how you view diversity. You see it as something which stands out, where I see it as something which blends in. I'm of the gay, and I don't think homosexuality needs to be meaningful, why can't it simply exist? That's what diversity is supposed to represent....coexistance. A person being able to say "I'm different, so what?" and not having to justify their existence.
Well to answer you, I'm seventeen, if you look at my profile, almost eighteen in fact. And I have mentioned my sexuality around six times previous on this thread. In my primary school, people used gay as an insult. Any guy that touched another guy in any affectionate way, even between twin brothers, was mocked. We even had one or two genuinely violent guys who got into little fights and stuff. I was bullied but I didn't even know then little own someone else. But around about when I moved to high school, I discovered masturbation. It's funny, a lot of guy talk about how they wanked to girls but then realise they preffered to get off on guys. I never did wank to girls, but I took like a year to realise. It was Year 8. Luckily, my high school is really tolerant.. I accidentally said "I'm gay" too loud to someone once and the whole class heard. I got looks but they were awkward looks not "you fag" looks. I've only heard the word twice, both from juniors oddly, but it wasn't directed at me. So that's my experience with being gay. Oh, and YouTube has some real morons/maniacs in the comment section. That too. Now, again with this not diversity thing. If I make the cast have multiple sexualities, then it is more diverse by definition. You can complain about reasons, methods or amount but again; A implies A. Diversity implies diversity. Side note; you're straight, right? You speak very third person about the gay community. So how do you know more than me how being gay makes you? Unless you have a research paper to quote I've got the evidence advantage. And I'm considering posting a research paper myself.
Like I said above, it means writing a white heterosexual male character and slapping 'black lesbian' on them. That's not diversity, that's homogeneity in drag. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with writing a black lesbian character who acts just like a white, heterosexual male. I'm sure you can find people in the real world who are just like that. Similarly, there's nothing inherently wrong with writing a character as a white heterosexual male, then making them female. Ripley in Alien was originally a WHM, and became a woman at some point during preproduction on the movie. Back then, it was cool, because female characters in horror movies were mostly there to scream and be rescued, while she fought the alien and rescued herself. But, now, when just about every female character outside chick flicks and romance novels is a WHM in drag, it's just lame, predictable, and offensive to the majority of women who aren't like that. What's so awful about showing real diversity in characters, rather than just writing WHMs and pretending they're black, green, or female?
So, let me see if this is right, you're saying the only reason to write an openly gay character is if the story is about their sexuality? Okay, do me a favor and look up the term heteronormativity. Specifically, I want you to reach the understanding that, if we as writers don't specifically say otherwise, 9 out of 10 readers are going to assume that a character is straight. The same goes for other marginalized groups. You write a character without saying otherwise, most people will assume they're a straight, cis, white dude. If no other indications are given - because of the plethora of media we're exposed to from birth that exclusively stars such characters - our brains will tend to fill in a straight cis white guy unless we're told differently. What you seem to view as some sort of 'fake' or 'not real' diversity, where characters are casually revealed to not be straight/cis/white/male, is a massive step towards normalizing other identities and erasing things like heteronormativity. Which is important. I remember the first show I saw with a non-sexualized female lead, the first book I read with an explicitly bi lead, because it made me go "Holy shit! You can do that? I can be that?" and get really excited about storytelling. This shit is important. Your insistence, if I'm understanding it correctly, that a gay character should only be gay if it's relevant to the plot is so ... reductive. It's relevant. It's always relevant. For years all we could get were sad, shitty stories about how being gay sucked and you'd probably die. There's an entire pulp subgenre about lesbians that was only publishable at the time if one of them died. The ability to see a character who shares a portion of your identity but who isn't hindered by it or completely defined by it and probably suffering for the sake of ~realism~ is invaluable for lgbt kids especially, but honestly, for adults too. I just want to watch a dumb trashy crime show with a bi detective who does cool detective stuff and flirts with all the cute witnesses. Frankly, this thread is really tiresome, so I'ma go put in some work on my sf project with a black bi ace trans space captain whose plot in no way revolves around anything but being a space captain. 'Cause it's fun. And you're probably not going to listen anyway, but I tried.
Nothing. No one ever said that was wrong. I doubt that you can find even one person on this thread who has said that. I don't know why you're conjuring up that idea, but whatever the reason, it's a fabrication.
Woah, bisexual asexual trans. So I presume the idea is that he/she is not very interested, but when interested is attracted to both? And seeing as it's sci-fi I have to ask; in your future, can they do the chromosomes in gender reassignment surgery? That's the most touted failing by bigots, so it would be a very important step forward in your future world.
I'm going to give this another try: When a story has a main character that is not a white straight male between the ages of nineteen and forty, that story doesn't have to be ABOUT the ways that that character diverges from that standard character. The character can be gay, and the story can be about shapeshifting aliens taking over Chicago. The character can be female, and the story can be about a murder plot against a Senator. The character can be ninety years old, and the story can be about a forged Michelangelo. The character can be black, and the story can be about intrigue and murder over an incriminating photograph. That's my point, and, I believe, that of many other people on the thread. OF COURSE that attribute is going to affect elements of the plot, because the character affects the plot, and the attribute is a part of the character. But the attribute doesn't have to be the primary driving force for the plot. The author doesn't need a plot-driven excuse for making the character gay, female, elderly, black, or any other characteristic, ANY MORE THAN they need a plot-driven excuse for making the character a twenty-seven year old white straight man.
I said the trait needs to be meaningful to the story. I did not say (and do not believe) that the story needs to be about the trait. For example, the story might be about the Roswell crash in 1947. The lead character is a reporter in that time period trying to figure out what happened at Roswell. The government threatens to expose his homosexuality if he doesn't stop investigating. This is an example in which the character's trait of homosexuality is meaningful to the story, but the story isn't about the homosexuality.
That doesn't address the issue. It still has the story having an 'excuse' for having a non-straight character. You have persistently refused to answer the question of whether a story must have an excuse for having an adult male character.
Making a trait meaningful is not the same as having an excuse. "Because it is okay to give a character a meaningless trait" is an excuse.
What you just said is not an excuse, it is a position. It makes no attempt to reason out why, it is merely stating your belief. And nobody is using that line. I, at least, am saying that diversity has meaning in that it is interesting and realistic. That is enough. We are not talking about poetry, the story has elements that are about function or character as well as those that serve as plot meaning. Without layers and connections a narrative could not function. You can't expect every word to connect to some metaphor or clever plot device. Furthermore, as I have also said, what about "writing what you know' as a principle? Every story needs to have experiences you are personally familiar with as well as those you use imagination and research to depict.
Two things. First, I re-read your previous comments Justin. I realized I called you straight when you identified as gay earlier. Oops. I guess you just seem like a different person, I was liking what you were saying and now it feels like you changed directions. Second, given that, don't you appreciate the value of being able to make a character gay. "Meaningless" gayness is exactly what gay characters are still lagging behind on. How often is the action hero incidentally gay? I've got characters like that, and I love them, because it means that I can contribute something to pushing away the barrier of gay only when relevant. It's fun and it's an expression of the sexuality I feel rather than having to do the guy gets the girl for all the romance subplots.
How do you make it meaningful that a character is an adult male? How is your choice to make a character an adult male not tokenism?
'Adult Male' carries a lot of stereotypical attributes as a single concept. In writing, I could use it to imply a sense of adulthood, like a role model, mentor or generally respected person to the MC, where the term 'adult' means a lot more than simple age. I could also use it to highlight the opposite in a character, where a reader might expect a character to fulfill certain responsibilities and they flagrantly do not. Stating that someone is an adult is different than 'adult male' but still can carry a meaningful message, or none at all.
Also, in the example of the post, it does have a real meaning that the character is an adult, as what that person is undergoing is belittling, a persecution of one's preference despite it being non-harmful. Kind of like Alan Turing. While children experience belittling as part of their development, it is a whole different level of disrespect, possible hatred, flippancy and lack of acknowledgement for a person's state of mind. I mean lets face it, if you're a talented person in your field and you're being shunned for a sexual preference, then that is (to me) the ultimate form of snubbing.
