Fantasy Novelist's Quiz

well. you've certainly got good solid reasons for all your yeses. carry on then.

(and i laughed my butt off at some of your answers, BTW especially the one about plate mail)

 

I would also like to add that a Mary Sue can't viably exist in original fiction, as such any and all "Mary Sue tests" should be ignored and kicked to the curb if you are writing anything other then Fan Fiction.

 

They can exist in original fiction, though whether a character is a mary sue or not is up for debate. Very few if any questions in a litmus test relate to how a character acts among cannon characters in a fiction, just in general. If I were to write a main character in an originl fantasy fiction who:

A:Is absurdly stronger then the rest of the protagonists to the point they don't even matter
B:Is extrmely talented in just about every area
C:Has no serious personality flaws
D:Often uses "deus ex machina" to get out of tight spots

That character would likely be classified as a mary sue. Mary sue is a general term for a very romanticised character. With that said, the litmus test is not infalliable, and a character could hold mary sueish traits or even be a mary sue but with good enough writing could be a good character. So Mary Sue tests SHOULD be taken with a grian of salt.

 

Mary Sues in popular published fiction:

Jaenelle, Daemon, and Lucivar in the Black Jewels Trilogy.
Belladonna in the book of the same name, by Anne Bishop, who also wrote the Black Jewels Trilogy.
Rand al'Thor in the Wheel of Time series.
Eragon in Eldest, although he was more reasonable in the book Eragon.
Richard Cypher / Rahl in the Sword of Truth series. I mean, whoa, he is one humongous Gary Stu who can pick up any skill "by instinct" and breaks every supposed "rule" of magic ever invented.

So Mary Sue litmus tests are still useful.

As to what Ungood said ... it's entirely possible that he / she has come up with an amazing world and is justly annoyed at having the "Quiz Questions" author poke fun at many of the stock elements of high fantasy. On the other hand, many of those questions seemed perfectly valid to me, and the fact that many people on this forum do not see the whole point of asking such questions, is very much a red flag.

Good luck, Ungood, with all of your writing.

 

"Plate armour" or possibly "plated mail"(plated chainmail/splinted mail/ splinted chainmail) depending on which you meant (sounds like "plated mail" from your description). Anyway, it's not "plate mail".

 

First off, how do you define "nothing happens"? A lot of people would say "nothing happens" throughout "The Godfather" To quote a rule from my film class a couple years back:

No talking during the movie.What may be unimportant to you could be important for someone else

Secondly, I can easily envision a world where races are kept apart and forced into an isolated region. Avoiding racial tensions, culture clash, etc.

Lastly, the quiz was meant as a joke, so that kind of kills it's credibility as far as being a reasonable quiz. Ungood did a great demonstration of how it was so.

 

Right, your talking about Moorish and Turkish armor. I am rather bemused that you did not add Lamellar to this list.

But that does explain my confusion with what you put out.

Thank you for your time.

 

By principal a Mary Sue a product of super-self imposition into an established world. Hence the original Mary Sue, by which the entire concept is founded.

At this point you have just listed the trait of every super hero that ever existed.

This is not a requirement of a Mary Sue, as a matter of principal this works against the idea that their own "Mary Sue Greatness" normally solves the situation.

The term loosely applies to a Flawless or Unrealistic Character.

If that is how you view "romanticizing" then we are in agreement.

I have to agree.

 

At this point you have just listed the trait of every super hero that ever existed.

Maybe that would describe Superman(though even he has a weakness(, however heroes like Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, X-Men, etc. in other words almost every oter super hero has some sort of personality flaw and have limitations on their powers.

This is not a requirement of a Mary Sue, as a matter of principal this works against the idea that their own "Mary Sue Greatness" normally solves the situation.

There's no such thing as a "requirement" for a mary sue, there are many traits that can be attributed to a mary sue, and the overuse of "deus ex machina" is one of the first ones to come to mind for a mary sue.

If that is how you view "romanticizing" then we are in agreement.

Then I guess we are.

 

I suppose they might be "Sueish" but by foundation and principal a Mary Sue can not exist outside of Fan Fiction.

Ironically I have no tread any of those books, so I could not make a judgment call on the nature and abilities of the MC.

But one has to point out that the MC has to be "A step above" or more to the point "The world revolves around them" to be the MC to start with.

I wish you the best equally so with your writing. I hope one day to have the pleasure to enjoy a book where I see your name as the author.

 

Ok. Limitations in their powers, yes. But they still made everyone around them near to pointless.

Example: How viable was commissioner Gordan to Batman? He spent his life playing catch up to the Dark Knight. (And Batman was just a human, no special gifts, alien tech or any of that stuff)

Most Hero's never come up with the "I have no idea what I am doing" problem so they always seem to be paying against their strongest talents.

If they have lack a skill it is not normally vital nor does it count against them too much.

As for the personality flaws, that is iffy, Originally they did not.

Not until the likes of Peter Parker (Spiderman) rolled around and Super Hero's became more 'human' in the personality department.

And yes, Superman would be like the Sue Apex of all time, when you look at it, yet he is not considered a Gary Stu.

There has to be something more then just a list of traits. I think the author makes the Sue, not the MC.

That has given me a bit to think about now. Something I should look deeper into.

What really makes a Sue a Sue.

Might be a great discussion on the forums.

 

Well glad I've started a little Hot topic argument, but I stand by the fact that this should not be ignored. The idea that you should abandon anything is indeed crazy, but I know that some of my earliest work is beyond cliche. If I asked myself those questions back then, I'd have a poor turnout.

Yes, there are a handful of questions that require a "no" answer, some of which HeinleinFan pointed out, and there are some that may need a 'yes' though I can't think of any.

I do not support the views of the author of this, but I do feel that every writer should look this over, expecially those "influanced" by Tolkien and those who consider their work to be "high" fantasy, for even if you answer yes, there may be a small amount of work to avoid that, though you may feel that you learned something or not.

I know its helped me... sort of.

 

amusingly, I only answered yes to two questions. The hay bale one. and the "god in disguise" one. While not actually a true god. He's perceived as one amongst his.... kind. LOL I did find it rather insulting. While I did it with my latest idea in mind a lot of my other thinks are littered with a lot of yeses. But so many people who have read the first four chapters LOVED it. (And im talking a good 20+ people, only six of which are closely tied to myself.)

Heres the most annoying stuff though:

25. Do you not know when the hay baler was invented? How the hell does this question pertain to fantasy?! In any genre if you don't know the history of particular things that end up appearing YOU look like an idiot!

64. Do you really think it frequently takes more than one arrow in the chest to kill a man? ... Unless you have the best aim in the WORLD and ALWAYS hit the F***ing heart... YES, It will take more than one arrow in the chest to kill a man! Just like it takes more than one knife stabbing to kill a person! (the average is like... four? I think)

There were others of course....

 

Ok after a long discussion (Well it was a Rant really) among my friends and family about that Hay Bailer question I finally got an answer to why it was asked.

It seems many fantasy stories (none I have read) have the common square bails of hay in the hay loft, for the oh so famous romp in the hay.

The idea is that Medieval Fantasy is normality around the 1400- 1600 time period, which is before the hay bailer, so they would not have the square bails of hay we have today.

They would smaller bundles of hay, which make for the same type of fun romp with the fair maiden.

Ooo good point bringing up the stabbing. That is one I see a lot where someone takes one stab in the back and they die.

 

Yeah a question would be "Do you really think it takes a single stab to kill a man."

Though I think arrows can be deadly more often than knives.

 

I think the test was a farce. Ommonite thank you for making me feel old. from now on I will only call anything D&D related by the new owners name Wizards of the Coast.

On another note Gary Gygax and I will over throw Wizards with an arm of Kender and halflings carrying +2 Wands of Confusion and letting all editting be done by Gnomes with Gauntlets of dexterity +5 and Knowledge of the Ages Helmets(+5 Wis/+ 7 Int).

Once the confusion settles down we will have a group of dwarves stand guard as we change the name to TSR and once more run the company into the ground with too many properties.

Bring SpellJammer Back

 

Ah yeah, done this and many other things like it in the past. Its a good laugh, and anyone writing fantasy could do with reading it and the other things such as Evil Overlord Lists and Stupid Plot Tricks etc. Even though its supposed to be a joke, it is helpful to take a look and see if there really is too much cliche, as sometimes it is not obvious until something like this spells it out for you. Obviously no one should take the joke that 1 Yes means scrap it seriously But if you find yourself realising something like this can basically predict your entire novel from existing formula, you should look into making some changes or twists on the current plot to make it more original.


And just to fill it out again if anyone cares ...

Does nothing happen in the first fifty pages? - No (meaning yes, something does)
Is your main character a young farmhand with mysterious parentage? No
Is your main character the heir to the throne but doesn’t know it? No
Is your story about a young character who comes of age, gains great power, and defeats the supreme badguy? No
Is your story about a quest for a magical artifact that will save the world? No
How about one that will destroy it? No
Does your story revolve around an ancient prophecy about “The One” who will save the world and everybody and all the forces of good? No
Does your novel contain a character whose sole purpose is to show up at random plot points and dispense information? No
Does your novel contain a character that is really a god in disguise? No
Is the evil supreme badguy secretly the father of your main character? No
Is the king of your world a kindly king duped by an evil magician? No
Does “a forgetful wizard” describe any of the characters in your novel? No
How about “a powerful but slow and kind-hearted warrior”? No
How about “a wise, mystical sage who refuses to give away plot details for his own personal, mysterious reasons”? No
Do the female characters in your novel spend a lot of time worrying about how they look, especially when the male main character is around? No
Do any of your female characters exist solely to be captured and rescued? No
Do any of your female characters exist solely to embody feminist ideals? No
Would “a clumsy cooking wench more comfortable with a frying pan than a sword” aptly describe any of your female characters? No
Would “a fearless warrioress more comfortable with a sword than a frying pan” aptly describe any of your female characters? No
Is any character in your novel best described as “a dour dwarf”? No
How about “a half-elf torn between his human and elven heritage”? No
Did you make the elves and the dwarves great friends, just to be different? No
Does everybody under four feet tall exist solely for comic relief? No
Do you think that the only two uses for ships are fishing and piracy? No
Do you not know when the hay baler was invented? Yes (i dont know lol - could find out tho )
Did you draw a map for your novel which includes places named things like “The Blasted Lands” or “The Forest of Fear” or “The Desert of Desolation” or absolutely anything “of Doom”? No
Does your novel contain a prologue that is impossible to understand until you’ve read the entire book, if even then? No (i think it is at least partially, if not almost completely, understandable )
Is this the first book in a planned trilogy? No
How about a quintet or a decalogue? No (though perhaps a series of 6 LOL)
Is your novel thicker than a New York City phone book? No
Did absolutely nothing happen in the previous book you wrote, yet you figure you’re still many sequels away from finishing your “story”? No
Are you writing prequels to your as-yet-unfinished series of books? No (5th of the series of 6 i have planned (if i ever get that far) is sort of a prequel though)
Is your name Robert Jordan and you lied like a dog to get this far? No
Is your novel based on the adventures of your role-playing group? No
Does your novel contain characters transported from the real world to a fantasy realm? No
Do any of your main characters have apostrophes or dashes in their names? No
Do any of your main characters have names longer than three syllables? Yes (Ariala - 4 syllables)
Do you see nothing wrong with having two characters from the same small isolated village being named “Tim Umber” and “Belthusalanthalus al’Grinsok”? No
Does your novel contain orcs, elves, dwarves, or halflings? No
How about “orken” or “dwerrows”? No
Do you have a race prefixed by “half-”? No
At any point in your novel, do the main characters take a shortcut through ancient dwarven mines? No
Do you write your battle scenes by playing them out in your favorite RPG? No
Have you done up game statistics for all of your main characters in your favorite RPG? No
Are you writing a work-for-hire for Wizards of the Coast? No
Do inns in your book exist solely so your main characters can have brawls? No
Do you think you know how feudalism worked but really don’t? No
Do your characters spend an inordinate amount of time journeying from place to place? No
Could one of your main characters tell the other characters something that would really help them in their quest but refuses to do so just so it won’t break the plot? Yes (wouldnt be that helpful, especially in the 1st 1, and there is no quest, but i know what its asking and in essence yes the main character doesnt give away crucial information about the enemy to the others for a long time)
Do any of the magic users in your novel cast spells easily identifiable as “fireball” or “lightning bolt”? Yes
Do you ever use the term “mana” in your novel? No
Do you ever use the term “plate mail” in your novel? No
Heaven help you, do you ever use the term “hit points” in your novel? No
Do you not realize how much gold actually weighs? No (as in i do realise)
Do you think horses can gallop all day long without rest? No
Does anybody in your novel fight for two hours straight in full plate armor, then ride a horse for four hours, then delicately make love to a willing barmaid all in the same day? No
Does your main character have a magic axe, hammer, spear, or other weapon that returns to him when he throws it? No
Does anybody in your novel ever stab anybody with a scimitar? No
Does anybody in your novel stab anybody straight through plate armor? No
Do you think swords weigh ten pounds or more? [info] dont even know lol
Does your hero fall in love with an unattainable woman, whom he later attains? No
Does a large portion of the humor in your novel consist of puns? No
Is your hero able to withstand multiple blows from the fantasy equivalent of a ten pound sledge but is still threatened by a small woman with a dagger? No
Do you really think it frequently takes more than one arrow in the chest to kill a man? No
Do you not realize it takes hours to make a good stew, making it a poor choice for an “on the road” meal? No
Do you have nomadic barbarians living on the tundra and consuming barrels and barrels of mead? No
Do you think that “mead” is just a fancy name for “beer”? No
Does your story involve a number of different races, each of which has exactly one country, one ruler, and one religion? No
Is the best organized and most numerous group of people in your world the thieves’ guild? No
Does your main villain punish insignificant mistakes with death? No
Is your story about a crack team of warriors that take along a bard who is useless in a fight, though he plays a mean lute? No
Is “common” the official language of your world? No
Is the countryside in your novel littered with tombs and gravesites filled with ancient magical loot that nobody thought to steal centuries before? No
Is your book basically a rip-off of The Lord of the Rings? No
Read that question again and answer truthfully. Perhaps a little

 

You realize that Gary Gygax passed away?

 

No I did not. When was that?

 

This past March, a lot of sites that did D&D related stuff put up Good Byes and things like that in memorial to the Legend that has left us.

Say what you will, I think deep down we all want to have our names immortalized next to Gygax.

 

That does suck. You are right, that is the only way for a man to become immortal

 

Silver random is on the mark!

 

I got the long version of this quiz last week: The Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Diana Wynne Jones. I thought it was funny.

What's salad, precious?
...but anyway I'm not going to intentionally avoid everything that comes close to an entry in that book, just to be original-- some tropes are there for a good reason, and the difference between that and a cliche is a lot in the treatment than the actual idea isn't it? (*is a Mist-with-a-big-'m' lover, though I credit that more to Japanese video games.*)

 

I'd have to ask you to re-think that. While they do get a volocity boost to pierce deeper, they are smaller. the wound they create may be more deadly than a knife, but its still not likely that one (unless extremely well placed) is going to do you in....

 

Bad list.

Im writing a modern fantasy and it goes into cliches a fair bit at one point I was quiet discouraged because I was afraid it was to cliche.

I didn't answer yes once on that quiz. (I nearly answered yes once with the trilogy, since that was my orginal idea, but really I cut that idea back ages ago, without even realising it.)

But then I dont like Tolkien, and have no wish to emulate his dry writing.