Couldn't care less what you think, and I have yet to see you post anything half as intelligent as Cacain. as to the rest, there isa an old saying-
I might add that I'm 55. It's not so much that I'm an old fuddy-duddy, more that my powers of ruthless precision in expressing a point of view and questioning the actions of others have become finely honed over the years to a level that scares even me . So please enjoy some of my posts for what they are, really - demonstrations of how one can write forcefully but elegantly when necessary, without resorting to jibe and insult. You will see I sometimes use the old-fashioned gerund - "my not having said", for example. I do this to introduce this device to those who might not be familiar with it, and to remind those who may have forgotten its charm. In the future, I'll add a smiley when I am (or think I am) being funny in some way, to avoid misinterpretation of my intent and meaning. But be aware - dependence on the smiley in figuring out whether someone is joking or not might over time dull one's ability to work things out for oneself. Who knows? Having said that, it is very easy to be misunderstood in web forums. So let's see if it works: You're all crazy I've got better things to do!
Now we all know what you have up your sleeve in reserve....... Downright nastiness! Is that the best you can manage? And why didn't you quote my post in full? Here it is: Because your comments were sarcastic. A common definition is: A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound You wrote: I thought you were off to greener pastures. Gonna write that great untold story. Go down in the anals of literary history. The sentences in bold above have no relation to anything I wrote. I have made no reference in this forum to my having "a great untold story" to write nor to any personal aspiration to go down in literary history. In my shoes, then, what would you conclude? I said nothing about leaving the forum, but that I was considering a break. Regarding the comment about my having better things to do - that was specifically in reference to my involvement in posts and topics which to me are nonsensical. I'd much rather be chewing the fat about writing. I could have ignored your comments, but where would the fun be in that. .
Three smileys I put in - in vain. They seem to be effective only when people want them to be. Otherwise they can be simply get ignored. I wonder why some resort to nastiness? And in public, too. Well a sort of "public", here, but without the risk of any serious consequences, above and beyond their being referred to in yet another string of words. Very safe, the web is, as a place to be sarcastic and nasty towards others, for no reason.....just on a whim...... Ideally, we should be in a reasoned debate, discussing the points of view and opinions of others. Here, unfortunately, we have an example of someone launching into written abuse against someone he or she doesn't even know. Whatever.
"... all you are aware of is the light, in greens and blues and all the colours you've ever seen, dropping specks of rainbow tinsel on the crests of the waves, and suddenly nothing else matters." That looks fairly purple to me. Maybe I should adjust my screen. "Dropping specks of rainbow tinsel on the crests of the waves"? Probably overwriting, in my book. But I actually like overwriting, and often do it myself, though I know it's not popular these days. By "ego", I mean you're writing in first person, and your narrator is using flowery language like that. It struck me that he's pretty impressed with himself. This is one of the reasons I tend to avoid writing in first person - when I want to write something flowery and poetic-sounding, well, that's just me and not my character. I don't usually want my characters to use flowery and poetic language; it changes who they are. I use that kind of language when I'm writing in third person. It's more liberating, I find. As I said, I don't normally provide much physical description of my characters, so I probably wouldn't describe her eyes at all. But if I tried, I'd probably write something like this: "She turned to me and I saw her eyes. And I saw the tiger behind them, gentle now, even motherly, but I knew I'd have to be careful." (See what I did there? I gave a nice, efficient, non-descriptive description, and brought the whole thread right back on topic! The tiger image is probably a cliche, but I like the rhythm of the sentences.)
Interesting to return to this forum and see posts easily degenerate into petty drama and misunderstandings instead of actual discussions about writing. My comments: “He wandered into the kitchen” is not cliché. “He drifted into the kitchen” is unnecessary. It's just as important to avoid cliches as it is to avoid trying too hard. You don't need to make every sentence colorful. You need to give the reader necessary information. Single words are not cliches. A cliché is an overused expression or phrase. The words "captivating" and "sparkling" can be used in phrases that are not cliches.
I did see what you did there, Minstrel, and I was considering doing it myself I like your tiger sentence, though it's not necessarily my style. I tend to go a little purple at times, as most know, but don't take it personally when people don't like it
One of the screenplays I wrote begins with the character waking up and going about his morning routine which shows he's in a futuristic world. I think the "waking up" thing could also be used to show a character lives (at least initially) in a perfectly normal world/life. To Leafmould, I like "wandered", but if it fits, "drifted" works too. Drifted sounds more ethereal to me. I get an image of the character sort of gliding into the kitchen. Ignoring my personal insanities about wording, I think you should use whatever phrasing fits the scene for you.
I hear a lot of talk about cliches in writing forums but as I was just reading a highly praised book (the one I mentioned in the 'chicken or egg' OP) I caught myself rolling my eyes at a certain passage, so I paused reading and asked, "Okay, why did that just irritate you?" My answer (to myself, yes I'm weird that way) was because it came off very cliche which BORES me instantly. (OTOH I believe it's impossible to create any written work that doesn't contain at least some commonly familiar things. So I usually expect any book to have at least some cliches. Should I not?) As I read the page in question, I thought: 'Hmmm, wait. It's not the actual words in the dialogue, but the THING they are discussing that sounds tired, because I've heard it in a thousand other books or movies.' And that's when this hit me: the thing that I call a cliche may not be a cliche at all. So I looked it up: 1. a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought. "the old cliché “one man's meat is another man's poison.”" synonyms: platitude, hackneyed phrase, commonplace, banality, old saying, maxim, truism, stock phrase, trite phrase; a very predictable or unoriginal thing or person. 2. a stereotype or electrotype. The passage from the book that made me roll came off as far too familiar (shop worn?) dialogue about a policeman being "Just one screw-up away from suspension... I'm gonna take your badge... When I'm done with you you'll be back on traffic duty..." etc. Sorry but I have heard this so many times I can't take it anymore. (argggh! lol) At this point, even if cops really do get threatened this way in real life, it still comes off boring to read that. So, I get that an overused word/phrase is a cliche, and that a stereotype is also a version of a cliche. But what do you call the kind I am referring to, the over-used situation/idea? Mind you, I'm not referring to the actual word choice or dialogue/phrase, but rather to the IDEA that's being re-hashed over and over in so similarly a manner, over many different written works. It's a too familiar thing happening in the story, and it comes off unoriginal, like the writer can't think of a new way to do it. Does this make sense? Is this a cliche too? Or is it called something else? I guess you'd simply call it, The Unoriginal Idea? Thanks in advance for your answers.
The definition of cliche that I've found most apt in fiction writing is actually none of those definitions. For me, cliche requires the thing to be commonly found and the thing to not fit the story well (with the idea being that cliche will identify when something is placed into a story because it is commonly found in other stories, even though it is not the best fit for this specific story). In this definition, a phrase or plot element cannot inherently be cliche.
Expressing anger by "making fists" and "grinding one's teeth" are annoying cliches. Another cliche: "His heart skipped a beat." Another: "His heart fluttered." Cliches are the tool of the lazy, the incompetent, and the inexperienced.
A cliché is a form of expression that is less effective because it is familiar to the audience. (An idiom is a form of expression that is more effective because it is familiar to the audience.) It may be splitting hairs, but by the definition I use, an idea per se is not cliché. But it could be that no matter how you express the idea, it will come across as a cliché because the audience is already familiar with the idea.
That's what I think too. A 'story' cliche instead of a 'language' cliche. So, whenever I refer to cliches, this is what I mean too. But I think I'm sometimes misunderstood because others seems to refer more to the language cliche so they are thrown off by my use of the word. Yes the language cliches are trype too, IMO, but I don't expect them as much when I'm reading published fiction because I figure not many make it to the final published draft. It seems, however, there are 'angry police captains chewing out hotshot rogue cops for insubordination' all over the place. <shrugs>
Well, I do see what you mean. I do. But for me it's not the way it's expressed but the fact that the same incident/scenario is repeating AGAIN so predictably, as seen in oh approximately 5,735 other novels in recent years. Using my above example about cops, let me rephrase the question: Has anyone ever seen a cop MC movie where the cop WASN'T reprimanded or verbally dressed down by his/her superior? I can't remember one, lol.
Also, this is what I meant in the OP when I said I think the word cliche doesn't fit (maybe) the 'repetitive shopworn' incident/scenario/idea overused commonly in fiction. So, like I said, there may not even be a word for what I'm referring to here. Anyone?
Dunno if I have seen a movie or TV show where that does not happen, but The Wire pulls it off beautifully:
This thread seems less effective to me because I am familiar with the topic. At what point does this become meta?
When I think cliche I'm thinking of anything that I've seen many times before - whether it's a phrase or a plot. You might be searching for the term trope? Of course tropes are not bad, and not all tropes are necessarily cliches.
