Anyone up for theology?

Do any of you think atheist has a negative connotation? I've found that this is often the case in America. I am sometimes hesitant to tell people I'm an atheist. It seems to me like they have this misconception that atheists lack morals, etc. Even some of my friends who call themselves agnostic instead of atheist for that reason. And I don't even live in a religious city or anything like that.

Just a few weeks ago, I was at my girlfriend's house. Her grandma was visiting, and she's moderately religious. When I told her I'm an atheist, she made some excuse and walked away. Also, she didn't speak to me or even look at me for the rest of the day. I'm pretty sure it's only because of my belief that she did this. I feel atheists and theists alike need to better understand each others' beliefs.

 

I know what you mean, thirdwind. Sometimes people act as if atheism were contagious or contaminating.

 

I hear of that sort of thing for many atheists in America, in fact it was the inspiration for the short story I posted in these forums. I visit a forum for atheists and we hear some horror stories about intolerance and misunderstanding to what being an atheist means. But it's all uncalled for really, I mean we're not an immoral bunch, nor are we rude and we can be a pleasant bunch.

 

Which pagan religion in particular? I have a few pagan friends (one who is third-generation) as well, and if it's Gaelic or Norse paganism you're interested in then I can bring any of your questions to them

Paganism isn't a religion. It is used to refer to many different religions. Asking a Gaelic pagan about Roman paganism is like asking a Jew about Shinto.

That also brings me back to the topic, and an event which both made me think about religion and even more confused as to the existence of a god (or several gods), and even thinking about how these gods, if each of them exists, interact with each other and each other's followers.

The event in question is a remarkable one. There probably isn't a logical explanation for this; I haven't found it if there is. It involved one of my pagan friends, and one who calls himself a 'political Catholic.' The latter isn't that religious, but the former is.

I was going to meet the latter, having retrieved a key to a bothy on his land from a friend who had used the place to keep his collection of oral stories that he'd written onto paper. She's researching Gaelic history, and the stories were valuable to everyone who knew about them. However, the road near Tongue isn't brilliant, and I decided to walk near Loch na Seilg to get there faster (yes, I was walking, it was sunny). But I slipped, and the key went into the loch. There was no way I was going in after it, so I had to go to my friend's house and tell him what he happened.

I walked right into an argument between the pagan (who is a worshipper of the Gaelic Triple Goddesses) and the Catholic, and, upon asking the rather annoyed girl who'd written down the oral stories, I found out that the Catholic had said the Gaelic and Hindu goddesses of water are not the same things (although they are, just as God and Allah are essentially the same). The pagan had then retaliated, saying that they were. I explained what had happened to the pagan, as he was right and seemed to be a lot calmer than the Catholic because of it.

Now, he saw an opportunity to prove himself, and arranged it with the Catholic that the two of them would meet near Loch na Seilg later that day, where the pagan said he would demonstrate the power of his belief in the Gaelic Triple Goddesses (and as a result prove their existence) to anyone watching.

So, me and the girl (we just call her Nighean) gathered out friends, and arrived at the loch to see the Catholic waiting for the pagan. We had a look around, and I showed everyone where I'd slipped. There was nothing floating in the loch, or we'd have seen it. The Catholic said that he'd arrived there almost as soon as the pagan had left his house, but hadn't seen him. However, he arrived quickly, and took a brief look over the surface of the loch before he focused on one particular area, almost in the middle of the loch, for a while. Nothing seemed to have happened, when he turned with a triumphant smile to the Catholic, and gestured to the loch, declaring that the key was clearly visible.

The Catholic looked harder, as the pagan indicated the location of the key to everyone else. I saw it there, rather obviously, on the surface (which was calm). The key was metal, and hadn't been in the water that long, and I had seen it sink near the bank. However, it was now clearly visible, floating on the surface in the middle of the loch, for everyone to see.

A brief exchange of looks left the Catholic wading into the river to retrieve it, and he returned with it in his hand. It was solid, and was the exact same key that had sunk earlier. We used it to unlock the door to the bothy, just to be sure.

 

Norse paganism is not the whole "Thor and Odin" thing is it?

 

Ha! That's it!!

 

Yep. It's also called Asatru. It's the worship of the Norse pantheon. Odin is the king of the Norse gods and some of the more well known deities include Thor, Loki and Freya.

 

Just as Christianity is the whole God/Allah thing (well, those two are the same god), yes it is. But there are other Norse gods and goddesses, those two are simply the most famous for whatever reason.

 

We just refer to it as the Norse religion or perhaps Nordic religion here in Norway I think. Or at least when we were taught stuff about it we spoke of the Norse Mythology. I'm not sure they ever referred to it as a pagan though, but I don't remember all that much.

 

Thor can create lightning and Odin sees all as far as I remember. The most memorable characters as far as I'm concerned, plus I'm not sure what the other gods are called in English.

 

Even though this thread is entitled Theology, on a much larger scale it is talking about "the meaning of life™". It's at seven pages long and is not intent on stopping soon, and I can guarantee that every other forum on the internet has had a thread about the exact same thing. We humans have thought a lot about this.

But we are still talking about the meaning of life™. So there's only two possible options here...

1. We do not all agree on what it is.
2. We are not entirely sure about what we ourselves believe it is.

Both of these are true. Now, if in the grand scheme of things you treat humanity as a whole, like I do, ( and you probably should, because this concept is as grand as it gets ) then you must conclude that this entity, the Humans, do not have any clue what the meaning of life™ is. We don't know where we came from, we don't know where we are going, and we don't know why we are here.

But the point of this post is not rooted in nihilism or agnosticism. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I've found that asking myself about the meaning of life™ is just too damn heavy for me to comprehend. So, I try to bring it down to my level and ask myself why I am asking that question in the first place. I don't go through life asking myself this question all the time. No, it is specific moments that bring me to it, and in those moments I often forget to stop and ask myself why it is that I'm even asking in the first place.

So, I've found that trying to live a life where I feel no need to ask that question may, in fact, be answering the question after all. Maybe we humans often ask what the meaning of life is simply because there is not enough meaning in our lives for us to be satisfied? That's how I see it. I make my own meaning so that when I die I won't still be wondering what the meaning of life™ is, because I'll be able to look back and see, through my eyes at least, what the meaning of life™ was.

If that involves a God, then alright. Hallelujah, praise the Lord, etc...
If it doesn't, like I'm feeling right now, then that's fine with me, too.

 

Um...the same thing

It is pagan, it's just not that similar to other pagan religions around it. Gaelic paganism clearly is descended from eastern pantheons (we share many of the same goddesses as the Hindus), Brythonic paganism is probably descended from earlier eastern pantheons if the Picts are a good example for every other Brythonic race, and Roman and Greek paganism are similar to each other but not to anything else.

 

Psh. If they are separate religions why call them something other than religions or their names? + it doesn't sound very complimenting. And I doubt the term is very accurate nowadays. Sounds weird to call yourself "someone who lives in rural areas".

 

They never had names. Their early followers (we're going back forty thousand years into the past here, with goddesses such as Danu) saw them as representations of important things rather than gods.

The Tuatha de Danann, who are now considered the Gaelic gods and goddesses, were never called gods by the people who worshipped them. They were an example, an ideal, that was believed to exist and would assist those who supported it and do nothing to those that didn't.

They were not the 'worship me or burn' gods that other religions have produced, and will continue to produce.

 

Tuatha de Danann? Why does that sound so familiar?
Good that someone can put me in my ignorant place of belonging sometimes
I blame it on my age!

 

i don't believe in any god/s or religion, have concluded from a lifetime-long serious study of the issue that all of mankind's religious constructs are nonsense designed only for the few to control the many and the cause of most of the wars and misery in the world... yet, some who are very religious say i live a totally spiritual life... go figure!

 

Sadly, yes they do carry a negative connotation. Be it because our nation was founded on religious principles or otherwise; also, especially in the south, atheism is as equally associated with democrats as well.

Whatever. Depending on where you live, however, this may be a wise choice. For instance, where I live you would get strange looks, but otherwise be fine. But in suburban Houston, there would be much more...neglect.

Yes, so do I. I for one can't see why atheists would take the chance, but that's just me. Anyone want to give this a whirl?

And where in the mess did I ever say I was better than you? Also, if indeed you mean that I chose a religion to escape hell, you would be wrong. I 'chose' my religion because I believe it to be true. I believe my religion to be correct. I was merely stating that , to those who don't at least attempt some sort of salvation, they are taking a huge gamble. Scared? We're all scared, son. But I don't think that's what you meant. You were throwing more of an insulting tone to it - perhaps trying to portray me as a sniveling little kid desperately searching for a big-bad God to save me from hell. Think what you like.

And nowhere ever have I given any indication that I was better than anyone. I am genuinely intrigued as to other people's lines of thinking on what happens when we die. If you can't live with that, please exit discussion stage left, as there is no reason to begin a fight in a topic that is already rather tense.

 

On Pascal's Wager? My thoughts on it are on the previous page. Beyond that, it's a poor argument logically. It assumes the only two possible states are no god, or a supposedly just god that demands worship in order to evade punishment. There could just as easily be an unjust god, or a god that is actually just and judges based on behaviour and not belief.

 

That is true.

This all boils down to personal faith, though. How can we 'prove' anything? I cannot actually sit here and show you God, just like you can't disprove him. Sure, you can say "I don't have to disprove something I don't believe in." Yeah, that's also true, but trying to influence like me, who has faith, seems to be...difficult.

Where one might have no cause to give two poos about what happens after they die, some people make a decision and live by it, for better or for worse. I am one of those people, completely devoting myself to something in the hope that I was, indeed, correct.

 

The United States' national documents are rife with religious references, but believe it or not, a number of the signers of those documents were atheist, including Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. Washington however did say "The United States in no sense was founded upon Christian doctrine."
And although of course not a signer, while Lincoln was very closed off about his religion (many believe him to be deist), there are a lot of speeches he made that seem like they're from an atheist's point of view.

As for Pascal's Wager... if there is a God, I'd hope he likes me a lot more than he likes those who are scared into worship. The "just in case" believers really baffle me.

It's so interesting that the God in the Old Testament and the God in the New Testament seem to be two totally seperate people. It's like he took anger management classes in between the two testaments.

What I do find very interesting is that in the United States, which is one of the most developed countries, roughly 70% of people believe in angels. At least, that's according to Gallup's poll. Rather disillusioned, in my opinion. According to that same poll, more people believe in heaven than hell and angels than demons. To me, that seems like a lot of people are just believing what is in their best interest.

 

Reread what you said man, you're either pretty bad at getting your real self and your real opinions and beliefs across or there are two of you, one who makes sense and one that is generally hostile. Also all I was saying is that if you based your Christianity upon not faith but the fact that you see it as a winning lottery ticket, you would be going to hell alongside myself.

I quote: "Being an atheist, one would not really concern themselves too deeply with these consequences I assume, but since you say you've considered the possibilities of Gods (at least, most of you claim that), then you can come to the reasoning that if you are wrong, you are completely and utterly screwed.That's assuming you are right. Not that we are wrong, there is an endless number of possibilities for what can happen if we are wrong. If you are right, you're not going to care, seeing as how you just cease to exist, right? If I'm wrong, same thing. But if I happen to be right, then I get to walk streets of gold FOREVER BABY!!! WOOOOOHHHHH!!!!! However, upon my righteousness, it's very unfortunate for you atheistic individuals, as you will be an unidentifiable burning lump of poo on the bottom of a burning lake of sulfur. Ouch."

You're using faulty logic to try and justify your faith. Or more like, ridicule mine. For example, even if I am wrong, I can still be rewarded for choosing not to believe in a different god than the one that actually existed whereas you could get punished for believing in a false god. Or we could both get damned, or we could reincarnate, or live on forever as nothing but shadows of what we once were(ghosts in a sense.)

This is not a matter of right or wrong, most likely not until we die anyway. It's a matter of belief and opinion. And nothing can be proven until both of us are dead, unless you, or me, reincarnate with definite proof of god existing(or not existing), or otherwise find undeniable proof one way or another.

 

I didn't really want to give a long post on religion- not because it doesn't interest me but because it's actually one of my main interests and any attempt on my part to summarise my thoughts on the subject are going to be, like this sentence, long and dense.

I believe we understand religion very differently- indeed, I think that's why so often debates on the subject get so far afield. In considering the afterlife, I'm faced with a myriad of possiblities. Perhaps I'll walk streets of gold, maybe I'll be underground feasting on dust. There may be fire, or endless battles. Or nothing. Ultimately, I think making a judgment on the basis of a fear of punishment/promise of reward in the afterlife somewhat defeats the purpose. Of all the aspects of religion that can be experienced, that bring joy, relieve grief, divide communities, or inflict suffering, it is the least experiential, the least tangible.

But to your question, do I believe in a 'higher power?' In the end, I don't know. In terms of the kind related to me by my parents- an immediate presence of God who blesses His chosen with choice parking spots or a pleasant day at work, I don't. I refuse to believe in a God that deigns it worth his effort to take away someone's cold, while ignoring the tortured last hours of a starving child's life. (side thought- the theology I'm discussing here is not at all indicitive of standard Christian theory, and my points here do not reflect my thoughts on Christianity on the whole)

In the sense of a being that created the universe in an instant and crafted humanity in a ready made state, my (admitedly limited) studies of science tell me no. Before Darwin, and more recently the findings and theories of physics I may have been a deist. Could a divine being be in the background keeping tabs on things to make sure everything turns out right- life arises and develops as it has- I'm far too ignorant in terms of science to make that judgement. But again, I'm leaning heavily towards no.

Yet mythology and religion remains an ever present force. On one level I suppose it can be explained away as a means of understanding an often inscrutable world. To some of the ancients, when observing a sky full of wonderous lights- lights, like Venus, that move in patterns that seem directed by some higher conciousness, attributing them to the actions of a 'higher power' made sense. Modern physics tell us this is not the case, but without the means to test that theory, calling the star 'Venus' and saying it is a goddess makes sense. And because these higher intelligences make their place in the world above, it stands to reason by following the movements of the heavens we can learn things about our own existence. In this sense, we brought the world of the gods down to us. Do I believe astrology can predict our future? Of course not. Can it tell us something about ourselves? I think so.

I hope my example isn't too clunky. I find it fascinating that in mythlogy- and by extension religion- we find explainations for things outside our understanding- and in the process transform them into images we can understand, that not only illuminate but reveal us. I disagree with the idea that religion can be approached as a 'yes/no' question. I consider it- I suppose it's best to say like one of the arts. So in the end, do I believe in a 'higher power?' Perhaps, but if so, I don't think it's the images we see in religions, the figures of mythology. It is perhaps that which inspires those images. I think asking 'is there a god' is somewhat like asking 'where do stories come from.'

Also, besides the Toronto Maple Leafs the religion I'd associate the most with is Daoism. Not in the sense that I find its images the most believable, but its philosophies most closely align with the way I try to live my life. I apologise for trivialising and showing singular dimensions of different systems of belief in this post- but I think it's already far too long.

 

That's actually a very interesting position. Though I have to admit, I already kind of white-flagged this bad boy a long time ago by saying that it's all about faith. Something I can't stand are people who are iffy with what they feel about the afterlife; the people who's explanations are full of 'maybes' and 'ifs'.

For me, there is no real maybe. It comforts me, and though some may call it stupidity, I am supremely confident that my choice is the right one. I feel that everyone should, at one point, feel confident in some eventuality, be it eternal damnation, the absence of stimulation, or otherwise.

I'm not attacking anyone, either. But if you are completely ignorant of the subject, I encourage you do some serious 'soul' searching or research to solidify your own beliefs.

I'm out, though guys. This was a bit too much for me. I'm glad this didn't end badly, as usually I get laughed out of forums for being a theist. But I feel it could have been a lot smoother.

Bye guys.

 

Might as well ask you why are taking your chances with the Christian God. As far as you are concerned there is no risk, right? That's the impression I'm getting from you anyway. Imagine for a second that even atheists have the possibility for strong belief, and then think, "hmm maybe as far as they're concerned, there's really nothing to worry about."

The problem itself arises from the fact that you are trying to interpret our reasons for doing something, and letting your own belief stay intact, of course it wouldn't make sense.

If you believe something, truly believe not some half assed I think perhaps this is correct but I might be wrong, then why would you suddenly worry "what happens if I indeed am wrong?" unless you're paranoid or generally extremely pessimistic?

 

Another interesting thing to note is that the founding fathers tried to form a government based on separation of church and state. After all, the pilgrims came to America to escape religious persecution. Sadly, Americans seem to be very rooted in culture. I highly doubt a person who claims he is an atheist will be elected president. All of the presidents we have had so far have a religious affiliation (some form of Christianity). It's sad that even though we claim to have separation of church and state, the majority of people won't put their faith in an atheist leader.