It comes from whoever thinks they are smart enough to be able to critique a work. And the Dunning-Krueger effect is strong on the internet. I have seen plenty of critiques from people not fit to give advice.
Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is free to share it. All are welcome. The writer who posted their story will figure out what resonates with them and what doesn't. BTW, it's Dunning-Kruger
This called to mind that Tribal People React channel on Youtube "Smart" is a word that might mean different things to different people, or bring in value-judgement. By some counts it has more meanings than "nice" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/smart#Translations) I wondered if it's a gloss for something objective - 'has won literary awards' or 'has published sufficient books' or 'has relevant qualifications' or 'has written at least 100 critiques previously' or even... 'is literate.' Or whether it's something more internal to the person - a high IQ, social intelligence, attention to detail, diligence Or accidental - smart is as smart does? It's true the Tribal People don't usually include any technical or craft advice in their critiques, but that's because they're not being asked for any They usually describe profound meanings in whatever they're shown - without the form or the context seeming to matter all that much It might be because they're geniuses, but what if it's honesty? (which is sometimes a slight antonym of smart - e.g "don't talk smart") I like to think it's honesty or unfilteredness or something of that nature, so I wonder if:- In the internet-connected world, we're constantly trained to lie and to sustain insincere ways of reading It's being widely said that political ideas are being pushed into works and then reviewed-for, creating a feedback loop or "echo chamber" But what if that's the tip of the iceberg and an even more insidious problem is that writers and reviewers are both validating the same education system and the same publishing and media industries With that going on in the background, it may no longer be possible to guard-the-guardians
Anyone who can read is capable of critique. All it needs is for them to articulate what they like and don't like about a piece. I'd actually be interested to see some links to critiques from people you think aren't fit to give advice.
Looking at it a week or so later, I feel I should revise my previous statement. I shouldn't say "people not fit to give advice" but rather "people not ready to give advice." I apologize; I did not want to imply that they could not give advice, but rather that they should be making some growth before they do. I don't think it would be good for me to start sharing links from other sites, and I haven't had any from people here that I can recall being that bad. The most I'm willing to publicly say is that reddit gives you a broad gamut of responses. I had one not-too-long-ago where someone wrote five paragraphs of "critique" and his complaints blatantly showed that he never finished reading the first page. A few other comments called him out on this and he followed it up with a couple more statements, but they honestly smelled more like "I'm going to defend what I wrote" rather than "I'm going to honestly evaluate the work." I had some a couple months ago on another writing site where half the people were trying to re-write my story. I don't want to mention the site because there were still some good responses there and I don't want to slander a whole site just because of a few people. (who for all I know usually give better advice but were having a bad day; I don't know the people there.) I'll agree with that, but unfortunately some people don't know such basics. A simple "I liked this" and "I don't like this" would be a great critique to receive. But I'm a bit frustrated with some critiques that try to fix things that aren't broken.
Since I'm still a novice in all this, even after ten plus years of writing, I can only say what I do. - I do try not to read previous critiques before posting my own. - I say what I like and don't, if I know why, I'll add that. - I'm not the brightest bulb in the batch, so when you get a critique from me, you can feel assured that your text has been given an idiot-pass. - I try to help with logical faults and plot holes where I see them, since that seems to be something I'm decent with. (Finding them in other's texts that is, not my own.) - I like critiquing very new writers works, because there I feel I can actually help. When looking for critique I'm not picky. Anyone who can read or even just listen, I will take critique from. I will filter it though. Just my thoughts.
When we critique another writer's work. We need to focus on a few things. Where are the plot holes, what parts of the story cause us to lose interest, and which characters have problems ( actions or motivations that don't make sense, etc.) Our feedback needs to identify what and where the problem is, and describe it in a way that is constructive. On the other side of the issue, we can't take the feedback personally, or get defensive about what is said. In the end, the goal of the process is to improve the story.
I don't think your revision makes it any better. Every person has a right to give their critique, whether they've been writing for 30 years, or just starting. Who decides whether someone is ready or not? It's your responsibility to make it clear what you want critiqued and if someone doesn't adhere to that, you can freely discard it. You're trying to apply your own preferences to a wider community. Someone writing "I liked this" and "I didn't like this" to me isn't great critique, whereas you seem happy with that. I'd want to know why. Anything I put up as part of a post to be critiqued is fair game. If I say, 'please ignore the dialogue' and someone still takes the time to read the dialogue and try to rewrite it, I'll still read their suggestion. Why wouldn't I? It could be better than what I wrote. If I don't like the suggestion, I'll ignore it.
I don't know what kind of expectations you have when posting work on the internet and asking for people to give you feedback. I was thinking about posting something in the workshop section for the experience, but I've decided against it because I'm really not interested in opening myself and my writing to critique in this kind of format. I think I've been through enough workshops IRL. This thread does remind me of one of the workshops in my MFA program. We would have to write on to two pages of critique. Then they were collected by the professor and we were critiqued on our critique before they were given to the writer. We did spend an hour discussing each piece in the workshop so what was written down in our crates we discussed in class. I didn't mind this, and I actually think it helped everyone involved. But remember this was an MFA workshop so there were no beginner writers involved. Everyone was experienced and pretty much on the same level when it came to writing and critiquing. Those are things you can't really expect to find in an Internet setting like we have here. Another thing I don't like about posting stuff for critique on the Internet is how defensive some writers get. In the workshops I've been through the writer was not allowed to speak. I think it's a good thing for the writer not to be able to respond to the critique or feedback. What's there on the page speaks for itself.
I mean, that is a completely fair point. But even saying that, I have seen a number of corners on the internet where the people that gather seem to be... a bit more focused, or a bit more mature, or a bit more professional. This one is mature enough that I figured the points people made would actually be heard. From what I've seen, most of the people here who are on the unpolished side of things are at least willing to learn and grow, and that's a big thing. Wow, that sounds amazing! I'd love to see more of stuff like that.
Maybe you should think about an MFA. It seems like you might find aspects of it useful. I did and I'm the writer I am because of it.
Even if you're not the king of an MFA, just taking a workshop course of some kind will instruct the students on how to give feedback. This has been true of both in[person and online workshops I've taken. Of course, these cost money unless you can snag a scholarship, but sometimes they're right in saying you get what you pay for. Another option is swapping writing with someone instead of posting it in the workshop section. I've done trades with a handful of writers from this forum, and all those experiences turned out party good. The feedback I've gotten from doing this seems more thorough and personal. I also think there is a benefit to knowing where the person giving the critique is at in their own writing journey. Also, when I've done trades the responses I've given and gotten have always been a page or two and really thorough or helpful. I've been a little selective when it comes to who I let read my writing. And I do tell people that I don't like to read first drafts pf anything. Honestly, I don't know anyone who does. And there is no reason a writer can't go back over their writing and clean it up a little to the best of their abilities. Even new writers are capable of this. When my work is published, it's out there. I don't really want to put it my writing on the internet except for a publisher who has bought my work. I'm grateful for the editors I've been lucky to work with and everything my writing has gone through before it's shared on a large scale. And in those circumstances I have not received what could really be concerned any kind of critique. I'm also careful about first rights because I primarily work in short form. I think when you post your work for critique on a writing website, you really can't control what kind of response you'll get. There is not really leadership or guidance on how to give helpful feedback. And I think it could be difficult to figure how who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't in this format. But I will give it to you. You sure are brave to post your work like that. I hope you find a way to get better feedback and continue on.
Well I am glad that I found this thread! It has proven intuitive to me and will aid me as I give further critique to any work that appears in the workshop. (At the moment there seems to be a bit of a hiatus, but ho hum...) I am still very cautious when giving critique because I am no expert, nor an amateur! The closest I ever got to 'critique' was when we would analyse stories, essays etc... at school. I hated comprehension, and I wish that I had understood it better back then, it would have helped me with the analytical aspect of writing now, as well as giving critique on other people's work. As for 'you never know what you get on the internet', all of us know that the internet is an incalculable place, filled with spiteful creatures ready to nag at anything that doesn't fit their ideals. We know about them and we know how to avoid them. We also know of those who come here offering a very vague and inconsistent broth of 'critique' just to collect their critique points so that they can post something in the workshop. This, I find sad and wish that they would at least put in a bit more effort, after all: You get out what you put in. The points made about correcting an author's work apply to me as well. I am guilty of having offered a longer piece of critique with many sentences re-written, mainly aimed at improving the flow of the story and making it easier to read. This, however, is re-writing the author's work. I always make sure, though, that I state that my criticism is merely a suggestion, after all I may be a potential reader, but that the decision is up to them whether they decide to re-work the parts I pointed out. Indeed, a much deeper critique is asked for. Pointing out fundamental floors and errors which must be corrected in order for the story to be a success, to the author are valuable gems which more-often-than-not, come from more seasoned members. A 'beginner' would be better off gleaning points from more experienced critique-givers by reading their comments and then mulling it over, finding a way in which they can also offer such criticism. Lastly, I would like to show my agreement that the poster should give a hint as to what has happened with the work, whether any progress has been made or whether they have decided to drop it altogether. I find that this is valuable for the critique-giver, as it assures them that they haven't spent their time writing a detailed reply for an author who has since taken flight. This is a very 'advanced' thread, so I think my reply will suffice for now. Regards, Phoenix
