judging our own writing

I'm interested in any tips you guys might have when it comes to judging and evaluating our own work. I know this can be a pretty hard thing, but I also believe this is something we can probably improve or get better at. Do you think you're a good judge of your own writing? Why or why not? And have you found anything that's been helpful at accessing what you've got down on the page?

 

I can generally distinguish between my good and not-so-good stories but... not always. I sometimes write stories that I become really attached to. That unfortunately makes me blind to some of their pitfalls and I put them out there only to become disappointed because it just wasn't as great as I thought it would be.

Sometimes I tend to write stories that have personal value to me. But that personal value will of course not translate to others. I'm referring to a specific story that sorta meant a lot to me but ended up getting lots of criticism, probably more than any other story I've written. All that feedback ultimately rendered me to view that story in a negative light.

So, in summary, it depends.

I've said this before numerous times in other threads but I'll say it again because it really is good: Let your stories age for months at a time. Your mind will forget all about them and next time you revisit them, you'll end up noticing a lot of things you didn't before, which will ultimately allow you to deliver a better verdict.

 

Probably the most important thing for me is to rely on my own intuition. I can usually tell when something "feels right" and when something doesn't. The narrative has to make sense to me, both plot-wise and character-wise. I get a big picture of what I want the story to be, and if what I am writing doesn't match that, it's back to the drawing board. I'm not one to "settle." The last story I wrote, I thought was finished, but it nagged at me, and I went and made major changes to it, and now that story is a much better read.

 

Judging my own work does not end well for me. Things I think are near complete, often need major revisions when submitted to the world. I agree with @ps102 to put time between you and your story if you can.

So I seem to suffer from over-confidence in my texts, something beginners often do. I am a novice, even after 10+ years of on and off writing.

I would add something @Xoic mentioned to me. Before editing, try to revisit educational material. That way you have some of the lessons and information fresh in your mind when editing. This tip may work for both masters and beginners, since knowledge may not always stay fresh.

 

I go over a story scene by scene and make sure I can pick out the story grid commandments of a scene. Then I scale that up to the chapter level.
Inciting Incident
Turning Point Progressive Complication
Crisis
Climax
Resolution

In some cases, I do short scenes to change POV. In those cases, I look at the scenes as a group for the commandments.

 

I'm not sure if I can tell how good my writing is. I mean, I can compare it to how well I used to write years ago, and usually it's obviously better. But I don't think I can tell if it's objectively good. For that I can only let other people read it and see what they think. When I posted the various versions of my story in the workshop I got some good feedback and each time some of it struck me as things I need to get better at. And I've spent a good deal of time trying to improve on those things. Usually I'll look up articles or videos dealing with the particular problem, and sometimes I'll get books specifically about it. A lot of the writing posts I did on my blog (where I looked up articles etc) were specifically because of feedback I got.

It's always a mixed blessing, because it doesn't feel good to hear that things aren't working in your story (sometimes I was already aware of it, sometimes not), but it also means you now know what you can do to improve your work. And I'd rather know than not.

And I agree with @ps102 —I sometimes really love a story, and get too attached to be able to change some things. I also think it makes it hard to tell if a story is objectively good or not.

 

It is extremely difficult to judge ones own writing, in my experience.
At some points, it's seemed that those niggling doubts over a passage come back through feedback in a way that confirms the misgiving. The resolution forms itself to address those niggling doubts because they become magnified in the mind of the reader. And then, in similar circumstances in another story, that part that niggles is cited as the strongest writing by reviewers. Adjust the plan to only address those niggles when the misgiving is accurate and not when it's incorrect. Adjust the plan further to pull your hair out.

Time away from the written piece can allow clearer perspective, help to improve it, but critiques will still bring the surprising and unexpected. Listen to constructive feedback and let it inform the process when it's useful. I thinl it important to have some sense of ones strengths and weaknesses as author. It can also be helpful to adopt a minimum strategy that lets the story say what you want it to say, how you want to say it. Only that conviction infuses meaning that will engage a reader. Beyond that, it's out of your hamds.

 

I used to experience this, especially early on. Having a doubt and then having feedback later on that reflects this exact same doubt.

I'd argue that this is very much part of your judgement. I had the underlying ability to detect pitfalls but I didn't listen to that voice inside me. Overtime, I did learn how to, and now, I find that my stories are more consistent in quality. If I have a doubt, its worth considering.

I genuinely can't think of a time where I had one of those "niggling doubts" and it turned out to be overthinking. Every doubt I acted over has been all for the right reasons.

 

I just don't see getting feedback as the answer to solving problems or improving my writing. I've been through plenty of that, and, honestly, I think I'm done with it. I think where feedback comes from is more important than even what's being said about the writing. And, still, it's just not something I want to do anymore. Actually, I think it's been years since I've had any feedback on my writing. I also don't really put a lot of weight into that sort of thing anymore.

I do agree that time away is a tremendous help when going through editing and revision. But I guess one thing I struggle with is knowing when to actually call my writing done and also knowing how good it is or if it's good at all. I mostly write short stories. I've had what I considered a throw-away story (that I never had feedback on)sell for $1k and I've had stories that I thought were my best work ever (and got tons of feedback on) never sell.

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm not looking to improve my writing as much as be able to more accurately access what I've got down on the page. I mean, people do this all the time, right? Not everyone uses beta readers. No one has read any of my novel, and I don't think I'm going to ask anyone to read it before contacting a few agents once I get it to the place I want it to be. It's just every time I go back to almost any piece of writing I always see ways to improve it. I would never finish or publish anything if I didn't just eventually say fuck it and start sending it out.

I don't really want to debate the usefulness or lack of when it comes to feedback. I don't really want to deal with outside opinions other than from editors and agents. I will also add that I don't really have someone in my life right now that I can rely on for that sort of thing. And I imagine this is true or has been true for other people. So, how do you do it on your own?

The time thing is good. Any more tips like that?

 

I totally understand that. I've heard several times from professional writers that feedback from a writing group (made up of amateurs mostly) is not usually helpful. One of them was Stephen King. I imagine feedback from a professional editor is much better, especially if you can match up with the right editor. Most of us at this level (in a forum like this one) don't have that option, until and unless we can get stories published and can get such feedback.

But speaking for myself and I'm sure many others here, I'm at a level where the kind of feedback I can get here is a lot better than no feedback at all. It needs to be carefully weighed. Some of it is better than others. Some of the critique I recieved here has been extremely helpful.

 

I find that time does indeed consistently kill the vast majority of darlings. Highlights bad prose, too.

That said, I think I will still miss some longer-term continuity/logic errors. Small things like mentioning an article of clothing after it's been removed, someone's eyes or hair changing colour.

I did eventually catch an error I made on the one short story I've submitted here... of course well after the submission window closed. I just try not to think about it.

Perhaps several self-read-throughs are enough, but I would eventually like a pass via a beta reader who is not a writer (nor a professional beta reader). However, that can be tricky to find and reward properly.


That's my tip I guess: character spreadsheets. Not for personality or anything, but as a means of tracking names and superficial things like hair/eye/skin/colour. Sometimes I'd change a name or hair colour, and forget to change an instance or two (control F can only get you so far). It was common enough that a working reference sheet is nice to have.

 

Any editor buying my work is the right editor. When I am working with an editor who is buying my work and publishing me I am happy to make any edits and do any revision they suggest. I don't really think about it at that point, I just do it. When I get personal rejections with any sort of criticism (even if meant to be constructive) I really don't give it much thought. Editors can be wrong. Not that my story is perfect. I'm just saying saying neither is their assessment.

I want to be clear that I don't think I'm better than anyone else here. I know first hand that there are some great writers on this forum. I couldn't sell (or give away) any fiction for the life of me when I started on this forum. I appreciate the community here, and I know we're all people who take writing seriously and work hard at the craft. But not everyone here wants to workshop or is looking for beta readers. I have swapped stories with plenty of people on this forum over the years. And I never had a bad encounter with anyone doing that. But I don't think any writer can expect or seeks out feedback on everything they write or want to publish.

@Xoic -- What sort of things have helped you access your own work outside of feedback or on your own? I know you went back to a project after taking some time away from it. How's that novel coming along? Are you writing shorts as well or just longer work? I think you've been around here for about as long as I have. Have you picked up any tips that have helped? You said that you need other people to tell you if something is good, but isn't that putting a lot of stock into someone else's opinion? And you must sort of know or think something is at least good enough to show someone else? I'm guessing you've probably picked up some stuff on your own along the way. I also know that you're really into articles, books, and videos about writing. So, you've probably come across some stuff about judging and accessing our own work, maybe?

 

It's on parking blocks in the back yard right now with chest-high weeds growing up from under it. And the novella (or however long it ends up being) is right beside it, also growing weeds.

Looks like just about half as long. I joined right at the end of 2019, so about 4 years ago.

Oh a hell of a lot!! Some from critiques—and not just on my own work, I read critiques on other people's stories as well. And I've also picked up a lot from discussions in here. It's largely been a huge learning period for me, and when you're learning a lot it can mess things up for a while. But I think it's more important to keep developing as a writer rather than just finish these particular stories in their current forms.

The thing is—as you're learning new things, you develop into a better, and to some extent different, writer, so things I wrote a year or so ago seem wrong to me now. But I've been getting some ideas for a re-start on the novel (I've done three or four of those already, and I could tell each time they weren't quite right, at least after some time). I realized very recently that the biggest problem is my characters aren't right for the story. They need some re-vamping (no, it isn't a vampire story). Then maybe it will click into place and start to flow out properly. But it isn't a loss—I approached each re-write as a new experiment. I knew I was somewhat lost as to how to approach the story, and that some things weren't right yet, but I wasn't sure what was off. This is definitely one of those big projects where you put a lot of time and effort into it and learn massively along the way and come out the other side a much better writer, whether or not the story gets written the way I originally concieved it (or at all). Some of the problems might be fatal, I can't tell yet. But I've developed considerably already and expect to develop farther.

It's more a matter of needing an outside pair of eyes, or several of them, because you can't really see your own work objectively. It all becomes so familiar that you can no longer really see it anymore. There's brain science behind this—what's become very familiar to us we don't really notice anymore. This is why it helps so much to put a story away for some time and come back to it. When it's no longer so familiar you can see it much more clearly.

Hmmm...no. I' ve never run across anything about that. Maybe it's something to look for.

 

I'm not saying an extra set of eyes on something isn't a good thing. Sure, it is. It's just not realistic to think (at least for me) that's something always available for everything we write. So, I'm think depending on feedback or it seeming like a necessity isn't really a good thing. I say this because that's sort of where I'm at. The stories and essays I've sent to publications in pretty much the past year no one has ever read or given me feedback on. Well, there was a personal rejection from an editor, but I'm not going to count that.

I'm working on cleaning up my novel. I need to have the first 50 pages ready to submit my mid March. The whole story is written. It's just no one has ever read any of it. There simply isn't time to get feedback even if I wanted it. But I feel pretty okay about it. I like my novel. I'll work on it until the day I submit it.

I've also been working on some grant applications. These make me the most nervous.

@Xoic -- Not telling you what to do at all, but I learned a lot (and I mean A LOT) from making myself finish pretty much everything I write. Finishing anything can be such a great accomplishment in itself. And having that be something consistent throughout your writing journey, I think, actually makes us produce more and better stories. Are you writing shorter works if your two novels are on hold at the moment?

 

No. I'm concentrating on studies right now, doing a deep dive into character arcs.

 

^ Contining with that thought.

I've always found that a period of intense study can disrupt you in the short term, because it's changing how you think (about writing in this case). It might mess up whatever current story you're working on, because you're making changes to the mind that's developing the story. The way I heard it put is your mind is like a library. Learning new things is analogous to adding new books to your library. And that disrupts your understanding of the books you already had there, because everything has to move around. For a while you can't find the old books anymore because the whole shelf is different now. But with enough time they all become familiar, and you get used to the new layout. Then you can find everything again, including the newly-added information.

When that information becomes familiar enough, it sinks right into the unconscious mind, and you can access it through intuition. This is what I'm going for. Learn enough about story structure and character arc etc, work with it enough so it sinks in, and it greatly improves your intuitive abilities. You just have to go through that rough patch where everything is messed up while you're learning.

In fact this is why I came here in the first place. This forum is my hub of learning, my college of knowledge, where I gather and study the new information. It's been four years. Pretty soon I'll call it quits on stuffing my head with new information—let it all settle in and just get back to the writing.

 

Funny that you should reply on this point. I'm not sure I'd describe it as overthinking, but the couple of instances that immediately come to mind are from 929. There were two passages, amongst others, that I was unsure of. You mentioned one as strong piece of writing, @Set2Stun another. Both I'd considered deleting but kept them after the feedback.

In a more general sense, as to what I use in my efforts to improve, feedback, largely through workshop and contests here, has been my primary source of development. It's a friendly place and one can mess around with form and content, try out new things and stretch a bit. I'm writing "creatively" just about as long as I've been a member here (just checked, May 2020). Writing alone, sending out submissions to no response, became enervating, like singing in a vacuum. First submissions for feedback were daunting, but skin hardens and needs change. I don't just need encouragement any more and can better handle issues people find in my writing. The workshop, giving and receiving feedback, reading others' comments, is massively educational for me, but we all learn in different ways. Sometimes, suggestions as to weak points have led to edits, though not necessarily what was suggested by the reviewer and I've ended up much happier with the story.

Another thing I've discovered, putting it out there, hearing back what people say, changes my relationship with my writing, in terms of both process and outcome. I also find that the writing part, by itself, is only part of the deal and the process isn't complete until it's read by someone not me. When I've done that, I'm better able to call it done, however good or bad, and move on to the next piece.

 

Oh, I can certainly relate to that! You should see what my novels looked like from before I joined. Actually, no, you shouldn't... for the sake of your eye health.

Yes, i can relate to that too. I've had some instances where my writing had compelling elements that I didn't spot till I received feedback.

Perhaps I should amend what I originally said: It's easy for me to distinguish bad writing elements and understand whether a story is ready, but its harder to recognize good elements. In that sense, if you told me to compare two of my best stories and judge them, I'd probably struggle.

 

I've got to take issue with what you're saying is the main job or job at all really of agents and editors. It's not always about sales and market trends or even predicting what the market wants. I think there are many in those positions who are looking for quality and where that is more important than the bottom revenue line. I will say that is at least the case in my experience as a writer and as someone who has worked in publishing.

I actually never heard sales discussed once when I had a job at a publishing house. I'm sure that comes into play when figuring out the advance to give a writer, but this is where the writer hopefully has a good agent who can make sure they are getting a fair deal.

As a writer, I had several correspondence and an in-person meeting with an editor at a big publishing house. This was a long time ago when people used to meet in person, but I traveled to NYC for this meeting. The editor actually told me that books about what I was writing about don't sell. But she was still interested and offered a lot of guidance and feedback on everything. Her investment in me and my book was not likely to have a large impact on how well my book sold. I think these things were definitely going to help sales. Maybe. Aside from that comment we never talked about sales or the market or anything like that. We only talked about my writing and the book. The same with the agents.

I think when agents or editors find a good book or a good project they are not always thinking about sales. I don't think the goal is always to find the books that will become best sellers. I'm not saying sales aren't important, but I don't think they are the driving factor behind every editorial decision. They are not in the sales industry. They are in the publishing industry. And there is a big difference there.

When it comes to publishing in literary journals and magazines those editors really aren't thinking at all about sales when they are making decisions about works submitted to them. The first line of defense -- the slush reader -- probably has no idea about the sales of the publication and certainly isn't there to factor in anything like that. They are there to find good writing. The aim of these publications is to publish good writing. Sure, it doesn't hurt to have big name authors contribute to their pages. And editors do solicit a lot of what they publish at many of those places. But even the work they solicit is to get good writing. I remember when Stephen King had a story that ran in Tin House some years back. The only reason I knew or anyone would know he had a story in that issue was to buy and read that issue. I highly doubt it had any impact of sales for that issue or future subscriptions, but I don't think that was the point either.

Many books and other writing that win book prizes can be pretty under the radar before those awards. Pulitzers, Bookers, and the like are not awarded because of high sales or the market or anything like that. Good writing gets noticed and good writing is still the most important thing to publishers and agents.

I do like your assessment here, saying we can judge our work to a high degree. I also agree that a it's important to separate our emotions from our writing when judging our work. I will take it a step further to say I think that's also important when it comes to editing our writing. This isn't something that makes for shitty artists. I think you can write the first draft with all the emotion you want. As you go through editing and revision, it's important to separate those emotions from what's down on the page. I guess this is something I've learned to do more and more over time, but it's really helped me out. My goal is always pure awesomeness.

But I don't see why it would be hard to predict how a reader would feel about it. I believe there are hurdles when evaluating our own writing. I'm just not sure that's one of them. Honestly, though, I don't ever think about readers. That's another whole topic. But predicting what readers will feel or think isn't going to make be writing any better. My goal is not to sell copies, my goal is to write great things. Sure, I want to publish and hope that whatever I publish does well. I just really don't like thinking about this allusive reader.

I like this. I don't think I've come across this quote before. But I'm pretty sure he means it's not yours anymore once it's published and available. Not about getting any feedback to reach or up until publication.

 

Of course, they have sales, mostly coming from subscriptions so the've in a sense already got those readers no matter what they publish. A lot of places also have things like grants and/or some sort of university ties. I don't see the readership of literary journal readership in general really growing. I don't think that is actually a goal. It's more like capturing a larger portion of who already reads these things. And one way for literary journals to do that is to publish works that will go onto win awards like Pushcart, O'Henry, Best of series. I think these things do draw more attention to their publications. It works on me at least.

No one is getting rich in the world of literary journals, but that's really not the point of them. In literary journal world everything comes down to the quality of writing a good story, essay, poem, translation. They put out the best work they can get their hands on. Then they will nominate the best they have every year for the awards. There is sort of a thrill to it all if you're into this sort of literary world. I have always liked reading literary journals because they feel very current. It's also a place for big name authors and anyone who publishes in this space can get experimental. But the reputations of these places are built of quality writing so that's what really matters.

I am fully aware that there is a difference between publishing literary fiction and publishing genre or even mainstream fiction. I'm not at all saying one is easier than the other, but one definitely cares about sales more than the other. Actually, I might sort of have to take that back. I think it's true for book publishing, but I'm not sure it's true for the genre magazines. I don't really know how exactly they work or what their business model is. It might be pretty much the same as literary journals. I know there are some big awards for genre short stories that the genre mags nominate for. I don't know how they are funded. I only dabble a bit in genre.

 

But more to the point of this thread... @Homer Potvin -- I do like your opinion that we might not be that bad at judging our own writing. I will take that 90%. How do you think writers can improve on judging their own work? How do we know if we're good at judging our own work in the first place? Sometimes I think I'm really good, and sometimes I think I'm really bad. It's usually one extreme or the other for me. How has it been for you judging your own writing?

 

I really like what you say here. I think this is important for writers to keep in mind. I also like the what you said in the rest of this post, I just really like the way you worded this part.