True, yes. On the other hand, if you're only writing from the POV of one character (your protagonist), you can only see, hear, taste and think from his/her POV. For example, your hero/heroine might think that character A is a jerk, character B is nice, and character C is short. But B can't think that A is a jerk (though he might say so), because you don't have access to B's eyes, ears, etc. Of course, you can get around all this by using a Camera POV. But then, you don't have access to anyone's eyes, ears, brains etc. -- the camera prevents you from doing this. Which one you use depends on whose story you want to write.
How does this resonate with this august group?: "Hilda's friend had one of those round, childishly pretty faces often seen on seriously fat women, and she seemed to keep going on incessant cups of hot tea and a number of cardigans. If she moved like an enormous tent, her husband Eric was a slender wraith of a man with a high aquiline nose, two flapping wings of gray hair on both sides of his face and a vague air of perpetual anxiety, broken now and then by high and unexpected laughter. He made cruciform gestures, as though remembering the rubric 'Spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch' and forgetting where those important articles were kept." John Mortimer, "Rumpole Rests His Case" p. 6. Paints a picture, don't it?
Speaking as a reader: Doesn't it depend on whether the text is first person or third? If its in first person then reading a lot of pungent appearance-based jokes from the narrator's inner dialogue feels absolutely fine, no matter how awful the gags are, so long as it is in character. It tells me more about our protagonist than anyone else. Of course, if it is in character and the protagonist has no redeeming features I'll likely as not not want to read on. If its in third person then it can feel a bit crueler. Which can still work, like Tom Sharpe, but there's a difference between "this is a savage book" and "we are in the head of a bitchy old dinosaur of a protagonist".
Hmm, I'm not (and never was) inclined to be "bitchy" etc. I was only thinking of something like this: Suppose Character A is short, young, and somewhat naive. The protagonist (Character B) is older, wiser, and more mature, but also moody and inclined to drink, because of his job and long hours. A thinks the world of B, and comes to him for advice. B, for his part, likes A, but can't resist making jokes about A's youth and shortness. There's nothing nasty about B -- it's just banter among colleagues -- but A, because of his naivete, says "Cut it out!" Character B, for his part, has a good heart, offers A good advice, and generally watches out for him. Would you say character B was a bit of a jerk? (By the way, if you've twigged by now that A is Walter "Radar" O'Reilly and B is Dr Benjamin Pierce -- well done. Have a cookie)
I take it a little personally, but I'm starting to get sick and tired of, and terribly irritated by, the mean jokes about fat people. You don't have the faintest idea of the harm you do to us, of how much harm you hurt us emotionally, for every bad joke about fat people. I apologize, I repeat, I take it personally, but I have felt, and feel, those kinds of bad jokes every day, and I'm tired.
No need to apologize. I should and do. Both my examples have been from "comic" writers, and both included references to being overweight. They are well-painted pictures perhaps, but done in a cruel manner, using that particular image for comic effect. I could and should and will use different examples.
I've spent significant parts of my life overweight, and I never took offense to fat jokes, unless they were aimed directly at me with intent to hurt my feelings. And even then, I understand it's often intended as a form of tough love. One thing that finally made me get serious was when what was left of my family got together for a Thanksgiving dinner and my aunt and sister got on my case about it. Not jokes, but serious talk about the risk of health problems. I took it badly for a while, but then I realized it was aimed at helping me understand the risks I was creating for myself. If someone fails to respond to gentle urgings, sometimes they need a wakeup call, and those by their nature can hurt your feelings for a while. But hurt feelings are far from the end of the world. It's just a brief emotional blip. You get over it, and then if you're lucky the real message got through. In my case it still required more. I collapsed one day from what I later realized was either hyper-or hypo-glycemia. Early warning for approaching diabetes. I lay on the floor shaking, unable to get up for about fifteen minutes, and I swore that if I lived through this, I would get myself in shape and lose the extra weight. And that's exactly what happened. I never held it against them, I understood their intent, even as my feelings were being hurt, and I'm grateful that they cared enough to be willing to blast through my fragile feelings to get such an important message through. Often harsh insults and jokes are just the more extreme version of that kind of tough love. Not always, but they can serve that purpose.
And of course it isn't just about being overweight. If someone is unusually tall or short, or has a large nose or a really small one, or is extremely skinny or anything outside of the norm, they're going to get singled out for it and sometimes made fun of. It isn't really personal, it's just a social thing. But we're getting off track, this is no longer about writing.
Hi Angy, I feel your pain and understand where it comes from. Personally I'm currently the right weight - for an aircraft carrier! And when I get on the scales they tell me to get off! But these things are simply an unfortunate part of life. And a lot of people can be targeted unintentionally. I mean do you think if the villain pirate wasn't actually the bad guy it would be considered reasonable to call him Hook? How would that make other people who have lost limbs if it was Peter Pan being called that having lost an arm? And there's currently some great who hah about some villain in I think a marvel work being rewritten as normally abled and no longer in a wheelchair. (Can't remember who.) I believe the justification was that they didn't want people with handicaps being connected with disability. My point is that weight, like shortness and disability and so many other things are all parts of the world we live in, and books in whatever form have to represent the world to a greater or lesser extent, including how the world treats people like this. (I grew up fat, so I have some understanding of how it feels to be called all of these names.) But I would be doing my readers and my author's vision a disservice if I didn't throw in at least a little of this real world and how people are treated. We can't sanitize the world and nor should we want to try. Not if we want to set our stories in that world. Cheers, Greg.
I think it's worth noting that things don't suddenly become offensive according to trend. They're either offensive or they're not. What changes is how vocal people are about it and how aware society is in general. Yes, some people have become overly sensitive with imagined micro-aggressions and whatnot, but fat shaming didn't suddenly become offensive at some point. People just got away with hurting other people's feelings and didn't care. It's always hurt people's feelings, and it always will. Do with that information what you will. I'll give another example. A few years ago, a friend pointed out that I shouldn't make fun of macho assholes by suggesting they're compensating for something, and he was right. There are plenty of men in the world who are not well endowed and don't act like asshats. Every time one of us makes a society accepted joke about inferior size, there's a chance someone listening is silently feeling shame for something over which they have no control. Just because no one is championing these people in the woke movement, doesn't mean the jokes aren't offensive. I don't mean to shame anyone here for their sense of humor. Joke about what you want to in your book. Your humor is your humor. I would humbly suggest, though, that you consider who it might hurt and whether or not you care. There is value in shock. There's value in irreverence. I'm a fan of many comedians who cross offensive lines all the time. It's sort of their job, though, and we as writers have to each decide for ourselves how offensive we intend to be, and how much we care about other people's feelings.
Hmm. If writing is to be believable, sometimes -- OK, often -- it has to reflect real life. I don't mean, of course, that a story should include anything the write is uncomfortable with sharing. Everyone in real life, author or not, is a story-teller. This is especially obvious with journalists and newspaper reporters, the TV news, etc. Everyone has a story to tell. We all filter it through our own (understandable) prejudices, feelings, and so on. Life, in short, is chaotic. It doesn't always make sense. What we humans do is try to make it make sense. Example: I was on the train to work a few months ago, and a woman came through the door at the last second, looking out-of-breath and very flustered. I helped her to a seat, and she thanked me, and said: "There's a guy out there directing traffic--" she stopped for a breath, and then, blushing slightly, blurted out: "--and he has no pants on!!!" ... a moment of hilarity later, everyone within earshot formed our own theories and stories about how that could make sense. An escapee from a hospital, in a hospital gown? Someone drunk, or on drugs? Or my favourite: an exhibitionist alien from another planet ...
I want to apologize to everyone for the message I wrote yesterday. I didn't even sleep last night. I took it personally and I apologize. I can't lose weight, the doctor told me, my weight will never go away. This makes me feel bad, because people don't see me, they only see my outward appearance. And I live it badly, I've always lived it badly, my sociophobia has transformed into agoraphobia. I apologize again to everyone. You are a wonderful forum. Thanks for all your replies. Replying to the post, In what context should the sentences be placed? Too much realism in the books, I don't think it's right, we need the right balance. Allow me, I hope not to offend you, I take the liberty of recommending two books to you, they are helping me a lot in the development of "funny jokes", in my novels, screenplays, and monologues", they are titled: Comedy Writing for Late-Night TV by Joe Toplyn. The New Comedy Bible by Judy Carter.
No problem at all, Angy. Please don't lose any sleep over it. I've worked in healthcare support (i.e. helping the medical staff and patients' families deal with their finances) for nearly 20 years, and I hardly ever take anything seriously. (Of course, I take people's accounts and payments very seriously indeed! People can be touchy about money). But in general, I'm an easy-going chap, and I'm not easily offended (or carry grudges). I know from personal experience how hard it is to lose weight and keep it off. So, please, don't worry! *offers Angy a friendly hug and a hot beverage*
We've all had bad days and said things we regret. Lord knows I have! We won't hold it against you. Here's an internet hug!
Everyone vents occasionally. Just remember, the comments are speaking generally and not at a specific person. If you start taking something personal, walk away and clear your head.
