I think that it's the same reason that people also (1) worry about others stealing their ideas and (2) say "I have this great idea; I just need to hire someone to write it up for me." They think that it's the idea that matters, that it has value separate from the writing, and therefore that it can be judged separately. If you believe that, then it makes perfect sense to try to get the idea evaluated before you spend all that time "writing it up."
We all come here with our own experiences, they shape what we see. I started with a story. The difference was, at my age, I had confidence in my story, I didn't need reassurance. But not everyone is in the same place. So who are we to judge, "if you are not where I am, you never will be"? That's not an evidence based conclusion. Everyone starts somewhere. You can't know the tipping point. You can say, "writers who have developed are [X]." But how can you say because they haven't developed they never will? I challenge you to prove you can say, they never will.
Uh. Did you read my post? Did I ever say that because they haven't developed they never will? Or _anything_ like it? I can see that you're annoyed, but perhaps you could quote the people who said the things that you're objecting to, instead of throwing tomatoes at random participants?
Didn't mean it personal that I posted quoting you, but you did carry the theme on in your post that I was addressing. So while you didn't say, "never will", you did say, "They think that it's the idea that matters, that it has value separate from the writing, and therefore that it can be judged separately. If you believe that, then it makes perfect sense to try to get the idea evaluated before you spend all that time "writing it up." I don't think that's what they all believe. Some, maybe, but others may just be saying, I have this idea and I need some reassurance. The idea matters a lot. So what if a person has an idea and is unsure of their writing abilities? I had an idea and knew I needed to learn how to write, but if I had that idea years ago, I can see myself asking if the idea was enough. I see more than a few writers here, and elsewhere, that have incredible skills but don't have that killer idea. I just don't get the judgmental attitude when you don't know what people who are young or new to writing will some day develop to be.
So, saying, "I think that they think Invalid Idea X." translates to "They will never write anything worthwhile"? Seriously? How do you equate these two? I absolutely do not believe that a writer cannot get past initial misconceptions and turn out to be a great writer. That's utterly contrary to my beliefs, and your attributing thoughts to me that I did not state, in any way, shape, or form, is making me sputter. This site is not a hive mind. If you object to something that someone has said, please object to that person. I wrote my post in response to the very first post of this thread, read the rest of the thread to make sure that my post wasn't a completely redundant thought, and then posted it. I was not posting as an obedient member of the Borg that you seem to believe exists here. Ginger, you owe me an apology.
So did I. One of the first things I tell people I help, writing-wise, is to just write the damned thing. It doesn't matter what the idea is. The idea can look good in a brief, but if it's not good actually written down as a story then the time spent worrying is just time wasted. There is no point worrying anyway, if there is something about the story you love you'll write it. The other thing that drives me nuts is when people give extremely small snippets (say about 300 words) and ask me to tell them if it's good, and if it's written well. It's just a scene! Any new writer who reads this comment: don't do this. Just don't.
The world has all sorts. Some people are confident, others are not. Some are young, some are old. Some have never posted on forum before, others are veterans. Some have never put pen to paper (and are terrified by the prospect!), others write with ease. Me approach is to be open and understanding as I can to all these people. In my mind, no question is a dumb question, all are valid, as we are creatures of learning. My response says as much about my character as it does about their question. Other people might have different ways of dealing with these questions, but they aren't for me.
I'd imagine that one reason to ask "is this character/story/plot okay" is to save oneself from future embarrassment. They might fear that they're unable to see holes or idiocy in their idea and hope that others would point them out. Some people are probably looking for praise too, a pat on the head, some positive reinforcement that gives them courage to keep on writing. I don't really have a problem with these threads though. It's nice to try to help someone.
Compulsive asking on the forum, about every stage and aspect of an early story idea, is annoying, but it's not a crime. I don't have to answer if I don't want to. What's even more annoying is the threads in which people ask forum members, quite arrogantly, to literally come up with the plot for them. And when they are told off, they become nasty. Can't stand that. I understand not sharing your ideas on the forum, I don't either, but I am comfortable bouncing my ideas off my husband, or my sister. Not everything, but once I have a solid plan for a novel I usually have lots of questions that need answering and sometimes it's really helpful to get their perspective.
I usually browse over the majority of the threads on this site without reading them. A good thread asks a legitimate question, typically dealing with writing functions or plot/character development/setting functions, and I rarely see them. I think what is generally lacked by many here are manners which are typically taught to one by their mother. Sure, you may think someone's story is 'the worst writing I have seen since high school. It made me want to tear my eyes out', but, at least with the way manners were taught to me, you don't tell someone that. Saying 'this story needs alot of improvement, here are my suggestions' is much more effective and it doesn't insult someone. If someone is asking the same questions over and over, you honestly don't have to answer them. But responding to their question with a scathing insult is immature and reminds me of high school, where the fat kid is being picked on by the guy who will be mowing lawns for a living in a few years. The only difference is this is being done online, by adults, in what is supposed to be a professional environment. Simply replace the fat kid with an young, new, insecure writer intimidated by the quality of writing they may have seen, and the loser with an much older, more experienced writer who has his nose stuck in the air. Such a person should know better.
No, but my point is that, as a child, I was hardly the most intelligent and certainly far from the most self-assured. So I do not regard my knowing at a young age not to seek validation as a particularly noteworthy attainment. I simply meant to contrast it with the fact that many of those who post such questions on this forum are adults or nearly so. Most of their growth has been attained, and if by that time they feel the need to seek validation for anything they want to do, how are they possibly going to have the onions to become a published writer? On a few such threads, I have posted the response, "If we say it's a bad idea, does that mean you won't write it?" I wasn't being facetious. To me, that's the heart of the matter, because if their answer is "yes", then they should give up the idea of writing for anything other than their own amusement. And if they say, "No", then what was the point of the post?
I apologize. The third time I read your post it sounds nicer than the second time I read it and that sounded nicer than the first time. It's me, I misread it. Sorry.
A lot of those questions come from people who are new to the forum. There are numerous reasons for such an inquiry, I don't see how one can judge a person based on such a pittance of impression. The example you give as an answer is fine as far as I can see. I don't think saying, "If we say it's a bad idea, does that mean you won't write it?", is disrespectful at all. I don't have any issue with your OP either. Nothing wrong with venting once in a while and there was truth in what you said, people are seeking reassurance. I don't agree that "Most of their growth has been attained" applies to everyone over the age of 20. Some of us never stop growing, I hope anyway. Here's what I take issue with: Here's why: And this post is full of straw because it's addressing what hasn't been said:
Of course not. But I was, of course, referring to basic growth, to attaining maturity. As for Cogito's posts (which seem to be the bulk of cause of your ire), I will admit that they can sometimes be sharp (and I think he'd be the first one to say it) and not my own personal style, but the last one that you quoted does get to the heart of it. Maybe I'm incorrect, but I always start with the assumption that someone who comes to this forum has more than just a casual interest in writing, and probably (at least more often than not) harbors some hope of publication and success (which we can define in several different ways). Neither Cogito nor other reliable commentators on this forum (such as Maia and Wreybies) hold back from laying out the stark truths of being a successful writer, and in that I think they do all the newbies a favor. And they shouldn't hold back because to do so is to protect newcomers from unpleasant truths that have to be learned sooner or later. In this case, the truth is that if you expect to be a writer, you'd better have confidence in your own ideas from the get-go. And like all other kinds of confidence, that has to come from within.
I probably need to tread with more caution here than I have the skill to. You referenced the last quote in my post, the one I said addressed straw arguments. It argues that frank criticism is objected to. That's not the objection at all. I don't even object to your thread. You noted a repeating pattern and how you felt about it. And the OP subject is no doubt a repeating pattern worth discussing. I see a repeating pattern as well. It's a pattern of condescension laced criticism. (Not saying that comes from you.) Again, your example, "If we say it's a bad idea, does that mean you won't write it?", is not condescending at all. It's frank, to the point, should make one think. Even if you meant it sarcastically, it's not condescending, IMO. This is condescending: "They are told" comes across as someone scolding a child. And it assumes the "told by me", which apparently was ineffective, is the fault of the tellee. It's equally possible the teller is the one who failed to communicate for a number of possible reasons. In particular, when one talks to people from some perceived position of superiority, they are likely to tune one out. I only started to write late in life, most people here have been writers since they were young. I grew tremendously through very harsh criticism. Every two weeks I'd write until I loved it, take it to the group and find out it had some glaring shortcomings. But the criticisms were never condescending. They always made sense. "If we say it's a bad idea, does that mean you won't write it?" makes a person think. It doesn't make them feel small. It's not about unpleasant truths or not holding back. A little empathy and humility attached to an unpleasant truth (and I'm not talking sugar coating) go a long way if one really wants that revelation to propel a person forward. Sometimes an attitude that slyly leaks into a post is worth paying attention to. If you don't care how the person hears your answer, why answer?
I actually don't find this condescending. I don't interpret "they are told" as analogous to scolding. And it is the tellee's refusal to accept the particular piece of advice that is at issue -- they refuse to accept or to learn that just asking about a story concept is useless. That indicates that they don't really understand the basis of good writing, and actually further implies that they refuse to consider most literature -- how "good" would most of the plot concepts sound when stripped down to their basic elements? The additional "not only by me" acknowledges the possibility that, for whatever reason, maybe the tellee does not want to listen to Cog. Yet, he was still told by other people -- who probably phrased it differently, and with whom presumably the tellee does not have the same personal beef (or the same perceived 'aura of superiority'. It is not unreasonable to believe that such a person is not as likely to find success in writing as one who is able to either see such things initially, or to understand them after they have been pointed out.
People, including you and I, are going to read things differently, especially when there are no audio or visual cues. That's a given. As far as refusing to take advice, I can see your point of view, that it's all up to the reader. But it's not my point of view. I teach. People don't all learn. So, what went wrong? Could be me, them or more than likely, a combination. It not unreasonable as you described it here. But that leaves out a lot of the details: How is that post not teeming with condescension? If someone has this much disdain for someone, maybe it's leaking out into their posts more than they think. And if that's what one assumes about the person asking, why post an answer at all?
I would agree that it contains a lot of scorn, but I think deservedly so. This particular post is not aimed at a particular individual, but at an anonymous group of individuals who have shown up here over a period of years. I've seen a few of them myself. They usually don't last long. When someone points out something they don't want to hear, they'll often respond with hostility or claim that people are mean or rude or some other such negative characterization. I don't think it's condescending when making this reference to a general group as a whole. It probably would be if it were an accusation toward a particular individual, based only on one or two postings. It also could be condescending if there is not sufficient evidence in the posts to indicate a strong probability that the person does fall into this group. But again, in this context, in this thread, I don't see it as condescending.
It comes back to us perceiving who the comments I read as condescending and you don't, apply to. And that goes back to the posts and forum members we each recall. The human brain remembers selectively. I've seen condescending replies to people with their first post. You recall people who fit Cog's slow to learn description. I think we'd both agree a lot of new members are hit and runners here. Who knows, maybe they're kids, maybe they're adults and they joined the site on a whim or while drunk and in an inflated ego stupor. Here's an example off the first page of the Plot Development subforum. Could this form a story? According to her profile, LibbiShannon is 15. She has 2 posts, the one above and another asking, Does this name suit this character. The story idea isn't half bad. The question about the protag's name is a different question asking about the same plot idea. The five replies in the character name thread are informative, nice, the criticism is simple like, the name makes people think of things. Going back to her first thread, the 6 replies are mixed. Ed's post is nice, a good answer that tells it like it is without being condescending. Compare that to Cog's: I read that and thought, why did Cog bother? I see she hasn't been back in a week. No telling if she will or not. The preponderance of comments were not ones that would encourage a young writer. How is a 15 yr old supposed to be so self assured that she's going to understand, "No, it couldn't form a story"? How does Cog know anything about her, from 2 posts. Somehow I think the odds are slim of her coming back and later telling us Cog's words were helpful. So I don't believe that rant about stupid idiot, never going to make it, writer wannabes is something that only applied to people who've posted again and again despite being told they weren't asking the right questions. I repeat my point, some of our forum members are young. They don't have years of experience and backbone growth. To a 15 yr old with a fairly decent idea about a story, she's likely to hear, "No, it couldn't form a story," as, "your idea is stupid". I'm pretty sure that's how I would have heard it at that age. I've sent her a PM and a link to this thread. Maybe she'll tell us how she took the comments and we can all test our hypotheses.
^ Agreed. Some people here come across as know-it-all bullies. It may be quite daunting for someone young who is interested in writing as a form of creative expression, not necessarily to get published or to be the best. It can be quite intimidating to the younger, newer members when people with a perception of knowledge and authority are simply negative and not critically supportive. Just because veterens are tired of questions doesn't mean new people should be attacked with their frustration. You could simply not read/answer. But egos being egos they can't help themselves. You don't only 'succeed' as a writer if you get published, praised, and wealthy. You succeed when you enjoy it and it drives your internal passion to create. Material 'success' isn't the only, and shouldn't be the only, reason to write and learn. What ever happened to enjoying creativity? So what if they'll 'never make it'. The annoying thing is that most of those spouting that 'the people who ask those questions will never make', haven't 'made it' themselves. When you do then you can speak from a position of authority. But I guess that those who can't often talk the loudest about how to do it. I hope that new members can ask whatever they like without being subjected to the Literati Mafia.
I haven't been watching these threads to know who says what and how, in general. On other writing forums, I've seen "I'm just honest and straightforward" used as an excuse for being a jerk. You can't say that's true of everyone who comes across that way, though. The way I figure it, there are multiple ways to get the exact same information across. Some are nice, and some are not so nice. On a forum full of writers, if you post things in a way that makes you come across as a jerk, it's because you wanted to come across as a jerk. Either that, or you're inept enough at the writing that your words don't reflect your intent.
Fully agree with GingerCoffee. I stopped asking for help here because I got pushed around by a troll a while back and it didn't make sense to continue arguing. You can defend your idea all you want, but if the other person doesn't like it, they'll try to shoot it down no matter what. Heck, they might be even trying to discourage you from writing it so that they can steal your idea. I certainly wouldn't put this above some people on the web. It happens a lot with aspiring fantasy writers that fellow forum members try to rewrite their stories to "make more sense". However, every story has a life and a universe of its own. Before judging, try understanding why it was written that way. And, obviously, something that sounds rubbish on an internet forum might look a lot better once wrapped up and finished. The reverse is true, too. There's nothing wrong with concepts like those of Twilight or Eragon on paper, they're bashed because the execution was poor, but how can you judge if a book is bad before it's written? If there's an interest in maintaining a writing forum, there should be some responsibility regarding the advice given. Usually, if a person resorts to asking complete strangers on the internet about something very personal such as a story, it's because this person can't find help in the material world, otherwise they wouldn't even think of coming here. Being sensible to that person might mean a whole lot of difference.
[sidetrack] The worst advice I get in my critique group is from people who want to write my story for me. It's quite different to say, "You're missing the hook", than it is to say, "Here's the hook I would put in your story". I don't think all critiquers recognize the difference. Note: this does not apply to people who suggest a re-written sentence in a helpful way that keeps the same content, or someone suggesting how to write a hook that keeps the same story content. [/sidetrack]
