A beta suggested that I should differentiate between my two groups of people by way of their language/manner of speaking. currently, I have a village isolated in the mountains, speaking the same way as my MC who is from a different clan. The only difference between the two are their clothes and nothing else. This is unrealistic, the beta pointed out, and I think they are correct. So, I've been experimenting with their speech patterns. Rather than make up a whole new dialect and warping the spelling of words to suit it, I gave them a quirk at the end of their sentences. But now I'm thinking that this could become annoying to a reader... Dialogue examples: The big man turned his attention back to Olun, another smile on his round face. “Come, we must get you situated, ya? There are many people waiting to meet you.” “This celebration is a bit over done, ya?” Genta grunted. “What would have happened had we not come tonight?” “Maybe I should be speaking to you this way, ya?” the young woman fired back. “You’re the one who brought her here! All the villagers use "ya?" in conversation. (I did also insert a scene where my MC acknowledges how weird it is and wondering why its phrased like a question. ) Thoughts?
Australians raise the tone of their voice at the end of sentences too, which makes it sound like a question. And for an example of people using a similar word in sentences, Malaysians and Singaporeans say "lah" a lot when speaking English or Singlish. e.g. this festival is a bit overdone. = this festival a bit too much lah.
Maybe give them a few different words that they use that others don't. Also if they are doing different things in their culture it could give them different slang or metaphors or superstitions. It's like high tail it over there - versus hurry over there.
My husband's family is North Dakotan Norwegian, and some of them end sentences with ja" the way some Canadians use "eh" and some Americans use "huh". "Youse guys come up here for the hockey playoffs, eh?" "That's what we come for, ja." "Bet it was a long cold trip, huh?" A fairly simple solution is to have one group use contractions and the other speak without contractions. The former feels less formal/pompous/affected (depending on the users) than the latter without being repetitive like the end of senence tic.
I guess it depends on how many of the characters speak that way (out of the whole cast). It does become a handy shortcut to instantly identify the origin or group that the speaker is in. If more characters do it than not, it could possibly become annoying.
I would ask what the problem is in the first place before diving into the dialogue gymnastics. Is it a matter of structure where the reader is unable to differentiate between the two clans in critical moments? Or an a matter of effectiveness where you are attempting to draw important differentiations between the two clans but the way they speak is failing to do that? If you think about it, all books, no matter the native languages of the characters, is translated into the reader's language (unless you're Cormac McCarthy who wrote all Spanish speakers in Spanish). So in the case of, say, and international thriller where all dialogue appears in English, there isn't a linguistic imperative to make the Chinese characters sound Chinese, the Russians sound Russian, the Americans sound American, et al. I guess I'm asking if this is a solution looking for a problem. You mentioned the beta thought it was "unrealistic" but is that it? Is there something that is screwing the story up by having them all sound the same, structurally speaking?
from a world building standpoint, I agree with the beta. if these group of people are supposed to have flourished in isolation for X amount of years, they would have developed their own speech patterns or kept old speech patterns while the outside world has evolved new ones. I did differentiate between them by giving them different customs.... they live in homes, my MC lived in a tent. They worship a different diety from my MC. they wear different patterned clothes. But in dialogue, there is/was no difference in the two groups. basically the whole cast except my MC and like 1 other... my MC is in a "fish out of water" situation.
Heard. That being the case, there's the contractions/no contractions somebody else mentioned above. You could also play with the possessives. Hemingway (I think) would use literal translations from his Spanish speaking characters. Like, "The wife of Bill" instead of "Bill's wife," which would have derived from La esposa de Bill. Or, "I call myself Bill" instead of "My name is Bill," as in Me llamo Bill. You can also play with metaphors and colloquialisms like Clavell did in all of his books when the Japanese or Chinese speaking characters were translated into English. Most of them were sexual in nature: The clouds and the rain: an orgasm Sword and sheath: a weiner Jade gate: a hoohah Golden pubis: a fair "haired" woman There were many others, but strangely I only remember the dirty ones. @Naomasa298 would know better than me, but I got the impression that a lot of those (the regulars, not the dirties) might have been translated from a single Japanese word or phrase that had no literal translation in English. So you might try playing around with that.
Are there any glaring cultural differences? Is one system utopian and the other not so much? One believes in virtues, while the other it's like Karl Drogo in GoT where periodically the clan leader needs to beat the hell out of his top rival in the public square? Seems to me language wouldn't pack as big a punch as say a community frightened by its autocratic mob boss or two locations with wildly different economic situations, etc. Thumbs up, hugs, and all that!! Best of luck, Trev
Homer's suggestion is good. For example, in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the characters from our world speak normally, while the otherworld characters speak using a slightly archaic, more formal tone. So for example, Covenant meets a man from our world who he knew thousands of years ago, but who has since been transformed into a forest guardian. I'm paraphrasing the scene: "It must be done, white gold wielder. Only the wild magic you wield can release the Earthpower that preserves Andelain, " hummed Caer-Caveral. "You're asking me to kill you, Troy!" (Thomas Covenant is speaking, Hile Troy is Caer-Caveral's name when he was human). "There is no choice, and you must be the one to do it." Seeing Covenant hesistate, the last Forestal's shoulder's sagged and deep lines appeared on his smooth, eyeless face. "I'm tired, Covenant." (or something like this) In the last line, he reverts to his former, human way of speaking. Donaldson is a much better writer than I am, and in the original, you can kind of feel how he changes from his ancient magical creature persona back to his human one momentarily.
If that is the case, then any dialogue changes I would do with the MC and the one other. Have you considered some words may have changed definition between the two groups. This could give you a fertile field of complications, from misunderstandings.
I've written extensive dialogue between a few characters with the assistance of a translator. It worked out pretty well; basically there's a tagged reminder that the translator is there after 4, 5, 6 exchanges or so, and in between it's just normal talking, with expressions, chin rubbing, brow furrowing, etc. And it doesn't have to last all that long for you, if there's similarities with the languages that the two groups use, even if one is isolated. There'd be some similar words and language structures, say like French and Spanish, and there would likely be trade between the groups if they are geographically close. So maybe the MC could pick up on things and understand their language after a bit, and then they can speak freely with one another. Maybe a trader or someone close could serve as a translator, and maybe the MC's quick adoption of language and culture could encourage the acceptance of this fish out of water. I wrote an English character in the past and made that clear by adding, "yeah?" to the end of a few of her statements. During the editing process, I did start to find it very annoying, and scrapped 90% of the yeahs. As others have mentioned, formality is a good one that works and doesn't tend to distract or annoy readers very much. For aliens and robots, formal language and no contractions always seems to work well. Think of how Vulcans speak in Star Trek, or perhaps Klingons. Lots of models out there to work from that are effective in making clear there's a cultural difference.
I remember reading Barry Gifford's novel Wild at Heart (the basis of the David Lynch movie which is actually much better IMO) and the character Lula's uptalk is represented by question marks at the end of her sentences. I don't know about the rest but "clouds and rain" is 雲雨, an allusion to the "Gaotang Rhapsody" by the poet Song Yu, where a liaison is described between a king and a mountain goddess named "Morning Cloud," who takes the form of a cloud by day and rain by night.
The full expression is 巫山云雨 (wu shan yun yu) in Chinese, or 雲雨巫山 (unufuzan) in Japanese - same expression, different order, and the same meaning in both languages - sexual intercourse.
You might change the order of subject-verb-object = SVO One group can structure their sentences SVO = He cut wood. Or SOV = He wood cut. Or VSO = Cut Sam wood. Or VOS = Cut wood Sam.
Okey dokey... now that I have the dialogue down, I have a question about coopting verbs/adjectives as nouns (unclear if this question should be another thread): In world building for this novel, I've already established that terms like "husband/wife" "Spouse" and "Partner" are too modern for the communities i've written. and I absolutely hate the term "Mate" (its too tied to Alpha/Beta kink). So i've turned the word "Bonded" into a neutral term for "spouse" (one who has bound themselves to another; "Let me introduce you to my Bonded" or "keep my bonded's name outcha mouth"). This has been working well, and is the only adjective that i've turned into a noun and gave a new definition. But with the differentiating between language between these two clans, I want to have another term for "Spouse" that the other clan uses and am thinking about using "Consummate" (One who perfects/completes another; "We have become Consummates" or "Let me introduce you to my Consummate") So far, I have made up names for the 4 different animals that are primarily used/eaten in this society, and have made up a name of a title... so i havent gone too overboard with a whole new dictionary of terms. I just want to know if having 2 real words with their own definitions being used in a different way would be confusing
"Mate" is kinky, but "bonded" is not? (Please ignore the silly giggling, JT. This just pegged my Absurdity Meter.) How about companion or consort? Or accessory? One can be an accessory to murder; why not an accessory to marriage? And if one is especially good-looking, one can be an attractive accessory to be exhibited on the arm of one's accessory. (Okay. I'll shut up and leave.)
When I read consummate, that brings to mind its other meaning of "a high degree" as in "he's a consummate gentleman." I'm not sure these communities would co-op another word, but rather have a special word that fits the definition of "spouse." Latin is a good go-to. So, for example, a spouse might be called a conju (spouse in latin is coniugis). It would be easy enough to establish the definition of this made-up word in your story. Other examples: Esposa (Spanish) Conjoint (French) Sýzygos (Greek) .. You can play around with the Google translator until you find a word you like
It's all contextual. So long as that is established, you should be fine. "Consumate" might play weird, but "bonded" is self-explanatory.
Interesting conversations, it's great to see the viewpoints of other writers. I'm late to this chat but hopefully I can share a few words about dialogues and translations. I watched a few Hong Kong Dramas with my parents when I was young and would ask them why the subtitles didn't quite match the phrases that were said. A lot of this they explained are attributed to local dialect slang, and that there is a big difference between speaking the exact written words to how it would come out naturally in a normal conversation between two people. A very simple example is: How are you? In the written Chinese form it is: 你好嗎? Ni hao ma? However in spoken Cantonese it is: 你點啊? Lee Dim ah? The subtitles would always use the Chinese form (ie the second one) but the actors would speak the Cantonese form. The strange thing is, if the Chinese form is translated directly into a written form (ie word for word) it would look like this: 你好嗎? Ni hao ma? You good ah? Which is very different from How are you? With all this, I haven't quite found the correct balance in keeping this 'native' language as a reader pointed out to me that my feeble attempt at creating a Mid-Western American accent sounded more cockney. It wasn't but I saw their point and have made some small amendments to this story, though the dialogue of this character will be reworked entirely. Returning to the OP (sorry this is getting long-winded The use of 'ya' here seems very similar to the use of 'ja' in Norwegian as mentioned above and this wouldn't bother me as a reader, in fact I find it adds more to these people, simple subtle hints at their culture that is a little different from ours. With the term 'bonded' I see no real issues with, as again, what others have pointed out to be a little crude in the 'actual' terms, is fine for me, as this shows a lot about the race of these people. Them not using the word husband and wife etc, is a nice deviation and 'bonded' can be sexual or coined for a relationship and I think that is quite unique and will make (this reader anyway) look into what these are people are actually like.
